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Medal Types?


Chris

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I don't care if someone uses saves to achieve ridiculous results, it has no effect on me at all. The only issue is if the game is designed around this out of context tool to effectively play the game. By the time the game gets hard, the game should have been smartly designed enough that I know how to handle setbacks without resorting to quick saves and saves.

However, and this is a big one, I do want saving to save every single state, and for loading to return the game to that state. The first Sword of the Stars would only save which turn you were in and the previous turn's progress, but not any changes to meters, routes, and tech. It was frequently annoying.

Edited by Bibidibop
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Ok well we were talking about farming because Chris brought it up in the OP, but still my point stands that that medal is very hard to get. I would be more likely to quite and try again after half an hour or so than have my entire dream team of alien fighters lost. Maybe that's just me.

Yes, but it's supposed to be very hard to get; that means the medal is working well! :P

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It's supposed to be hard, yes. But it's also supposed to be gotten by your soldiers, presumably sometime during your game. I asked someone if they ever completed a mission with just one guy left, and they came up with 2 examples they could remember for a game that's around 15 years old.

Now obviously they don't know every time it did occur, but what I am apparently failing to make clear is that while that medal is hard, most people would probably rather just have another go at the mission (maybe from the start, maybe save scumming) than lose their entire unit.

I want medals that are difficult to get (or at least some of them), but I also want it to be realistic to get them =p

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It is realistic to get them, though. I'm on my first playthrough of X-COM, and I've already had the "one soldier lives" scenario happen once.

The problem here is that you are linking your own personal play preferences with in-game design direction. It's not realistic for you or Gorlom to get that medal, because you'll just save-scum or reload your way out of losing your squad (and, again, I have no problem with people choosing to do that). However, for other players who prefer to roll with whatever punches the game throws at them and, by doing so, play the game the way it was intended to be played, it certainly is a realistic medal to get.

It's important to separate our own personal play inclinations from the game itself.

I'd also like to echo Beagle's post:

Gorlom, AD, you guys are basically arguing for the sake of it at this point. Like I and several others have said, these aren't achievements that are in the game to be farmed or aimed for, and if you are set on treating them like achievements and aiming for them and farming them anyway, then there's no point trying to design a way to stop you from doing that - you're going to do it no matter what.

We should not be looking at these in terms of "how hard is it to get these medals?"; we should look at these in terms of "what is awesome enough to deserve a medal?" Having only one soldier finish out a mission is awesome, ergo it deserves a medal irrespective of how difficult that medal is to achieve.

Edited by TheTuninator
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It is realistic to get them, though. I'm on my first playthrough of X-COM, and I've already had the "one soldier lives" scenario happen once.

The problem here is that you are linking your own personal play preferences with in-game design direction. It's not realistic for you or Gorlom to get that medal, because you'll just save-scum or reload your way out of losing your squad (and, again, I have no problem with people choosing to do that). However, for other players who prefer to roll with whatever punches the game throws at them and, by doing so, play the game the way it was intended to be played, it certainly is a realistic medal to get.

It's important to separate our own personal play inclinations from the game itself.

And how do you know how the game is mean to be played? I can understand rolling with the punches, if the game was dark souls. I get that the game is supposed to be hard, I do. And I realise that not everyone will play like me. But Chris has taken 10 medals, from a list many times that number. I was purely trying to make sure that that list is accessible to as many people who play the game as possible. If there were hundreds of different medals, I'd be fine with some being next to impossible to get, some which you could only get playing in iron man mode, etc. But what you have done is told me that the way I have suggested the game might be played is wrong, and the way you think the game should be played is, and I quote, "the way it was intended to be played." How do you know that? Because it is hardest? Even in Iron Man you can load and re-do missions from the start

In short, since there is a limited number of medals, is it not too much to ask that everyone who plays the game should be able to get them? It is a game for all those who play it after all, not just those who think they are playing it right. After all, I think Chris would be the best judge of that =p And I look forward to his feedback on this

We should not be looking at these in terms of "how hard is it to get these medals?"; we should look at these in terms of "what is awesome enough to deserve a medal?" Having only one soldier finish out a mission is awesome, ergo it deserves a medal irrespective of how difficult that medal is to achieve.

You should really read the OP and perhaps make suggestions on what Chris wanted, as I have tried to do, rather than purely "what is awesome enough to get a medal"

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And how do you know how the game is mean to be played? I can understand rolling with the punches, if the game was dark souls. I get that the game is supposed to be hard, I do. And I realise that not everyone will play like me. But Chris has taken 10 medals, from a list many times that number. I was purely trying to make sure that that list is accessible to as many people who play the game as possible. If there were hundreds of different medals, I'd be fine with some being next to impossible to get, some which you could only get playing in iron man mode, etc. But what you have done is told me that the way I have suggested the game might be played is wrong, and the way you think the game should be played is, and I quote, "the way it was intended to be played." How do you know that? Because it is hardest? Even in Iron Man you can load and re-do missions from the start

I think we can all agree that "the way the game is intended to be played" is without save-scumming, no? I've seen no indications of Xenonauts being designed with save-scumming in mind, nor have I seen any posts from Chris indicating that he wants the game to be played with save-scumming. That's what I'm referring to; the game is intended for you to play without save-scumming. I don't really think there can be any debate on that matter.

In short, since there is a limited number of medals, is it not too much to ask that everyone who plays the game should be able to get them? It is a game for all those who play it after all, not just those who think they are playing it right. After all, I think Chris would be the best judge of that =p And I look forward to his feedback on this.

You should really read the OP and perhaps make suggestions on what Chris wanted, as I have tried to do, rather than purely "what is awesome enough to get a medal"

Beagle's already addressed this, but I'll point it out again; you're not supposed to be able to obtain medals like achievements, as that's clearly not what Chris intends them to be. They're not something you obtain for completion's sake, but rather simply a cosmetic award for your soldier to remind you of something particularly awesome he did and facilitate further development of your own internal narrative for the game. Everyone who plays the game can get the Sole Survivor medal; it may not happen every playthrough, but it's not supposed to happen every playthrough. Per Chris's comments, medals are a commemorative piece, not a goal in and of themselves. They're not meant to be something you try to get, but rather something which reflects events which naturally occur in the game. If you want to try to get them deliberately, fine, but that's not why they are there.

And Chris has already given his feedback; he's selected the "Sole Survivor" medal as one he wants in the game. Indeed, that's been one of the ones he's wanted since the OP.

I've read the OP, and I've made plenty of medal suggestions of my own; I reserve the right to provide reasons in favor of retaining a medal that I like if you are arguing in favor of removing it.

Edited by TheTuninator
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I think we can all agree that "the way the game is intended to be played" is without save-scumming, no? I've seen no indications of Xenonauts being designed with save-scumming in mind, nor have I seen any posts from Chris indicating that he wants the game to be played with save-scumming. That's what I'm referring to; the game is intended for you to play without save-scumming. I don't really think there can be any debate on that matter.

I never said the game should be save scummed, I simply stated that in a bad situation some (maybe many) players are likely to abandon the game (especially if it is difficult in general) so that they can have a breather, get their head straight, and give it another go. Save scumming is loading every time the game does not go your way, not restarting the mission from the get go when you only have a few men left.

Beagle's already addressed this, but I'll point it out again; you're not supposed to be able to obtain medals like achievements, as that's clearly not what Chris intends them to be. They're not something you obtain for completion's sake, but rather simply a cosmetic award for your soldier to remind you of something particularly awesome he did and facilitate further development of your own internal narrative for the game. Everyone who plays the game can get the Sole Survivor medal; it may not happen every playthrough, but it's not supposed to happen every playthrough. Per Chris's comments, medals are a commemorative piece, not a goal in and of themselves. They're not meant to be something you try to get, but rather something which reflects events which naturally occur in the game. If you want to try to get them deliberately, fine, but that's not why they are there.

Perhaps I am not making it clear. I want a medal that everyone will realistically get, at some stage. Whether you know about the cirteria for getting it or not. 'Sole survivor' does not fit this criteria. I don't want it to be easy to get, I don't want it to be farmed like an achievement. I want medals, of all shapes and sizes, to be available to all of the players of this game.

I've read the OP, and I've made plenty of medal suggestions of my own; I reserve the right to provide reasons in favor of retaining a medal that I like if you are arguing in favor of removing it.

But I'm not in favour of removing it, I'm in favour of them both. But I am in favour of one over the other

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I never said the game should be save scummed, I simply stated that in a bad situation some (maybe many) players are likely to abandon the game (especially if it is difficult in general) so that they can have a breather, get their head straight, and give it another go. Save scumming is loading every time the game does not go your way, not restarting the mission from the get go when you only have a few men left.

Right; but, again, the game (X-COM) isn't designed with the idea that players will reload if a mission kicks their ass. It gives players the option, but it's designed so that you're able to pick up the pieces and continue even after a full squad wipe.

Perhaps I am not making it clear. I want a medal that everyone will realistically get, at some stage. Whether you know about the cirteria for getting it or not. 'Sole survivor' does not fit this criteria. I don't want it to be easy to get, I don't want it to be farmed like an achievement. I want medals, of all shapes and sizes, to be available to all of the players of this game.

And again, I have to disagree. I've already had a "sole survivor" situation in my (current and first) playthrough of X-COM. Is it going to be rare? Yes. Is it going to be obtainable? Yes. Some medals should be rarer than others; there's a reason that recipients of the Medal of Honor or the Victoria Cross receive a certain degree of awe.

But I'm not in favour of removing it, I'm in favour of them both. But I am in favour of one over the other

I apologize for misunderstanding, then; it seemed that you were promoting the fatal wound medal as an alternative to the sole survivor medal.

The sole survivor is a particularly bad design imo and I would very much like to not have it in the game. Does it bring anything extra for those that defend it?

Your argument that this medal is badly designed relies upon the idea that you, as a save-scummer, would feel obligated to save-scum in order to achieve it. A majority of posters in this thread have indicated that they do not agree with this position, and I am inclined to come down on their side as well.

The argument for this medal is that medals (as per Chris's statements) are supposed to recognize particularly significant or heroic feats by your soldiers, and there's few things more heroic and awesome than one soldier finishing up an entire mission on his own.

Again, I would invite you to advance a medal proposal that cannot be obtained via enough save-scumming; I think you'll find that such a medal doesn't exist. Where, then, do we draw the line between medals that people will feel a compelling need to save-scum in order to obtain, and medals that require too much save-scumming for it to be practical?

The simple answer is that you can't, as it's inherently a subjective principle; what may be an intolerable amount of save-scumming for me may be a light to moderate amount for another player. As such, save-scumming must be removed from consideration entirely; it cannot be evaluated from an objective perspective due to its highly personal nature.

Edited by TheTuninator
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Ok well we were talking about farming because Chris brought it up in the OP, but still my point stands that that medal is very hard to get. I would be more likely to quite and try again after half an hour or so than have my entire dream team of alien fighters lost. Maybe that's just me.

Also if you left in the rest of my quote, you'd see that I wrote the other one could be gained "through normal play" as in, you could quite happily get some of those medals without trying, as in, without the achievement style of gameplay.

Basically what I am saying is make sure you read the whole post next time =p

You are not. Supposed. To "get" them. I can only imagine you are not comprehending this point after I've posted it twice because I write posts that are too long, so I will try to summarize in short order:

These medals should not affect your decision making.

You should not, for example, be making a decision between retreating and continuing the mission, and consider medals in that thought process.

All of your complaints about the Sole Survivor medal revolve around the opposite of this idea. You are saying that medals SHOULD be designed around players who both know how to get the medals and have some uncontrollable urge to get every single one as soon as possible at the cost of playing the actual game.

If you still don't get what I'm trying to say, maybe the way I write isn't working for you, let me know. Otherwise, you can re-read my other posts at this point for suggestions and ideas relating to this important core ideal and how we embrace it. Basically, what I am saying is make sure you comprehend my posts next time.

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Your argument that this medal is badly designed relies upon the idea that you, as a save-scummer, would feel obligated to save-scum in order to achieve it. A majority of posters in this thread have indicated that they do not agree with this position, and I am inclined to come down on their side as well.

The argument for this medal is that medals (as per Chris's statements) are supposed to recognize particularly significant or heroic feats by your soldiers, and there's few things more heroic and awesome than one soldier finishing up an entire mission on his own.

Again, I would invite you to advance a medal proposal that cannot be obtained via enough save-scumming; I think you'll find that such a medal doesn't exist. Where, then, do we draw the line between medals that people will feel a compelling need to save-scum in order to obtain, and medals that require too much save-scumming for it to be practical?

The simple answer is that you can't, as it's inherently a subjective principle; what may be an intolerable amount of save-scumming for me may be a light to moderate amount for another player. As such, save-scumming must be removed from consideration entirely; it cannot be evaluated from an objective perspective due to its highly personal nature.

What I get out of reading your posts is that since it doesn't affect you it should be in the game, despite others feeling it's a bad design.

The sole survivior is more of an acomplishment medal then ADs suggestion to have a guy survive a fatal wound. Sure you can savescumm that one too. But it doesn't have the feeling of acomplishment like the sole survivor one does and therefore doesn't incite the same need to get it for people like me.

Would leaveing it out really be so bad? Can't any medal take its place? Is it really that imporant?

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What I get out of reading your posts is that since it doesn't affect you it should be in the game, despite others feeling it's a bad design.

The sole survivior is more of an acomplishment medal then ADs suggestion to have a guy survive a fatal wound. Sure you can savescumm that one too. But it doesn't have the feeling of acomplishment like the sole survivor one does and therefore doesn't incite the same need to get it for people like me.

Would leaveing it out really be so bad? Can't any medal take its place? Is it really that imporant?

The fact that it doesn't have the same feeling of accomplishment is the reason it's not as good.

As Beagle and I have repeatedly stated, Chris has made it clear that these medals are not something you strive to get, but rather something awarded after the fact to remind you of something awesome that happened within the internal narrative of the game.

If you insist on treating them as an achievement to be obtained, that's fine, but please don't then insist that your personal preference reflect upon game design when the professed design runs completely counter to what you want.

The bottom line is that these medals are not achievements, yet you insist on treating them like achievements.

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The fact that it doesn't have the same feeling of accomplishment is the reason it's not as good.

As Beagle and I have repeatedly stated, Chris has made it clear that these medals are not something you strive to get, but rather something awarded after the fact to remind you of something awesome that happened within the internal narrative of the game.

If you insist on treating them as an achievement to be obtained, that's fine, but please don't then insist that your personal preference reflect upon game design when the professed design runs completely counter to what you want.

The bottom line is that these medals are not achievements, yet you insist on treating them like achievements.

I cant help but feel that this whole post is an argument against sole survivor and for the survive a fatal injury medal.

But never mind that, could you answer my questions? Remove all points about achivemnets and whatnot. Would removing that medal from the game impact you in any way? Would it be a hughe loss? Assume Chris says he wants to remove it or whatever. I just want the bolded question(s) answered.

Then you are having severe problems comprehending his posts. :\

Well I cant seem to pull out of him the true worth of the medal? It impacts my ability to enjoy the game to its fullest should it be in there. It is something that could technically be acomplished without savescumming (but will likely require it and therefore in my eyes promotes savescuming) on all your characters. That medal is made for hunting it. That you can disregard that and enjoy the game without it is all fine and dandy but I really would really prefere to not have it in the game.

PS. Does anyone else feel like people are argeuing to win discussions rather then understand each others point of views nowadays...? This forum is starting to make me feel like someone I don't want to be. DS.

Edited by Gorlom
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Well I cant seem to pull out of him the true worth of the medal? It impacts my ability to enjoy the game to its fullest should it be in there. It is something that could technically be acomplished without savescumming (but will likely require it and therefore in my eyes promotes savescuming) on all your characters. That medal is made for hunting it. That you can disregard that and enjoy the game without it is all fine and dandy but I really would really prefere to not have it in the game.

PS. Does anyone else feel like people are argeuing to win discussions rather then understand each others point of views nowadays...? This forum is starting to make me feel like someone I don't want to be. DS.

just 2 thing really quick

regarding the bold portion, medals are not made for hunting it, they are there in case you achieve something or in case your have done some meritorious deed. Maybe i am wrong, but just because a game implements a reward system doesn't mean that i will try to get every single one of my unit to achieve it, that just sounds impractical.

I have been reading the thread just for my amusement, but it seems that an agreement must be reached, that agreement is that you agree to disagree.

Regarding the specific medal,

1) We do not know for sure if it will add a huge bonus or not, Chris was silent on that.

2) a system can be implemented to prevent exploiting just the sake of doing it, say you must have at least 6 solders and must attack a medium size UFO at least.

3) and last but not least lets just be happy if the system gets implemented at all and then we will complain about it features :)

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Would removing that medal from the game impact you in any way? Would it be a hughe loss? Assume Chris says he wants to remove it or whatever. I just want the bolded question(s) answered.

Personally - not really, I had no knowledge of Xenonauts medals until a couple of days ago when I saw this thread and decided to chime in quickly and say "hey I like the idea of keeping medals rare". On a purely personal level of that medal being in the game or not, eh, no biggie, it's not a huge part of the game for me.

However, the reason I'm posting here is I want to help the game end up as being well-designed, and I strongly feel that designing medals to be like achievements due to a minority that feels compelled to hunt them as such is a mistake. I believe their potential is in giving troops personality, I believe that was Chris's original intent, and I've posted in support of that subsequently in the hopes that you and AD would see what I meant.

My bolded question for you is - if your copy of Xenonauts came with a special file that removed the Sole Survivor medal from the game, would that solve this for you? As far as I can tell, you don't want the medal in the game because you personally would feel the need to go to extreme lengths to get it.

PS. Does anyone else feel like people are argeuing to win discussions rather then understand each others point of views nowadays...? This forum is starting to make me feel like someone I don't want to be. DS.

I am sorry to make you feel that way. I have just endeavored over the past few days to make my opinion on this matter as clear to you as possible as I feel it supports an important part of making the medals do what they're meant to. I have no intent to push it upon you any further if you still disagree with it after this post, as everything has been said that needs to be said already.

Tone can often be misinterpreted for the worse in forum posts. I find the best way to avoid these kind of hard feelings is that any time you read a forum post that sounds mean or angry, re-read it in the tone of Jeff Goldblum explaining his plan to defeat the aliens in Independence Day. To make things extra peachy here is a smiley face.

:cool:

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you know here is to everyone,

We know we would like to have a medal system

We know we would like said medal system to provide personality to our characters

We know we love X-COM and thus Xenonauts

We know that any improvement on Xeno will increase our desire to play the game more and more

We know that people have different opinions on just about every subject anyone can think of

And finally

We know that all my medals suggestions are awesome and all of yours are weak!!!! :P(just for fun that is)

So lets just relax a little,

*pulls a water hose and starts cooling everyone down*

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Hey all, got some typing to do it seems =p

I apologize for misunderstanding, then; it seemed that you were promoting the fatal wound medal as an alternative to the sole survivor medal.

I am advocating one over the other, but only because there appears there will be a limited number of medals. I personally would love to have heaps of medals, both of those included.

You are not. Supposed. To "get" them.

But you are supposed to get them. Whether you know about them or not, your soldiers are supposed to be able to get them. Let look at what Chris says:

I think that gives a decent mix of hard to get one-off medals, and those that will be achieved in time. A good soldier who has been around for say 15 missions should probably have about 5 medals on that list, I reckon.

And so you see, you have hard to get medals that you will only get once (like the sole survivor, etc.) and ones that you can get over time (like the shooting one). But the second sentence makes it all clearer. He wants soldiers to be able to get them while playing the game.

So regardless of whether you know about the conditions or not, I think that an average gamer (who I now speculate to be an average human being, who sometimes encounters hardships, and who will take breaks and come back to problems they cannot overcome straight away. As opposed to a hardcore gamer) should be able to get all of the medals at some stage.

Now it’s fine if you’re a hardcore gamer, but this game is being made for all kinds of gamers. And they should all be able to enjoy the entirety of the game, and all it has to offer them. Is that asking too much?

3) and last but not least lets just be happy if the system gets implemented at all and then we will complain about it features :)

Ha ha good point! I for one will be putting money into the funding thermometer, but this has yet to be funded.

*pulls a water hose and starts cooling everyone down*

Water fight! =p

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And so you see, you have hard to get medals that you will only get once (like the sole survivor, etc.) and ones that you can get over time (like the shooting one). But the second sentence makes it all clearer. He wants soldiers to be able to get them while playing the game.

Yes, of course I agree, when I say "get" in quotes I mean it as in "aiming to get". The sentence meant "You are not supposed to aim to get them". I've always said they should occur to soldiers in the course of normal gameplay, that's my whole argument, and the opposite is what I disagree with.

So regardless of whether you know about the conditions or not, I think that an average gamer (who I now speculate to be an average human being, who sometimes encounters hardships, and who will take breaks and come back to problems they cannot overcome straight away. As opposed to a hardcore gamer) should be able to get all of the medals at some stage.

I think that the medals shouldn't be things that players try to get, but things that remind you of events that happened to your soldiers. On this point, we seem to disagree, so let's agree to disagree.

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When have I ever said I want people to aim to get them? Never, that's when. In fact I believe I have been trying really hard to say the opposite. But I do want people to get the medals in the game. I want the medals to be hard, but actually belong to situations that most people who play the game might find themselves in. Not just the hardcore crowd.

I do not want people to aim to farm medals. In fact if you look at the medal (survive fatal wound), I suggested it because I thought it would be hard to farm, so that people couldn't aim to get it. Obviously that proved silly, but I don't want people to aim to get them either, but I do want them to get them during normal play. =]

Maybe I was not clear before, but am I now?

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That's great then, we agree, and we just disagree on how often you'll complete a mission with only one guy left.

My opinion on this from my own experiences and judging by replies in this thread is that it happens often enough. Maybe not every campaign, but that's my other opinion - I don't think the medal probability has to be designed with the intent of players getting every medal in each playthrough. If you look at it like that - that the medals have no reason to be probable for each and every campaign - I think the Sole Survivor is a great medal. It's something that happens now and then to X-Com troopers which would be well remembered by a medal when it happens to Xenonauts troopers.

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Would agree with you, but there is only 10 medals so far. That's why I am pushing for medals which people are more likely to get. If there was more, then sure perhaps there should be some you would only get every couple of games or so. But I don't see what the point is of having medals, if people aren't getting the full enjoyment out of them. Regardless of whether people know how to get the medals, they will still think "cool a new one!" But if there are only so many that will occur less, so as many as possible should be made practical to get.

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Well yes we all hve been trying to push for more medals but i think Chris might like it to stay at 10, I do hope he changes his mind i am inclining more towards 30 :) and AD, TT, Gorlom and a few other did come up with good names and fair characteristics.

But like i said before mine were the best :P

And i hope Chris will stop by here sometime and give us the good news :)

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Would agree with you, but there is only 10 medals so far. That's why I am pushing for medals which people are more likely to get. If there was more, then sure perhaps there should be some you would only get every couple of games or so. But I don't see what the point is of having medals, if people aren't getting the full enjoyment out of them. Regardless of whether people know how to get the medals, they will still think "cool a new one!" But if there are only so many that will occur less, so as many as possible should be made practical to get.

That's a fair point, from what was being said I didn't realise we were talking about a low number of medals and trying to squeeze the most out of what few we had, and with that in mind your post makes good sense. I'm glad we're on the same page after all.

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