V19 Experimental Build 3 available!

[Went]

Weapons in close range shows strange hit probabilities. Even on adjacent tiles, my burst firing percent is below 50! I stand behind the enemy and we unable to hit each other 2 or 3 turns in row, firing below our legs. This is unacceptable. This makes assault shotguns and pistols almost useless and turns close-range combat to idiotic show.

[Citizen844]

Always getting to recover your shot down aircraft makes it too arcade'ish. I'd be ok with a 25% chance, or something - but 100% recovery vs. superior tech is pretty batty.

[Lightzy]

None-destructible planes is the best thing to have happened to xenonauts. It will put the focus of the game back where it should be.

Thank you very much

I'd have hoped that they would automatically disengage when too damaged, because after all, all xeno craft are faster and more agile than all alien craft under atmospheric conditions, so it makes 100% sense, but I suppose recovering them, while not as sensible or fun, is still something.

I hope the xeno team always stick with a vision instead of compromising for the mewlings of those who's minds are like little square boxes, and who cannot even understand that if they had been presented with recoverable planes from the beginning, they would have been fine with it, but it is only change which they cannot handle. A tiny minority compared to the final audience of this great game.

[GizmoGomez]

I hope the xeno team always stick with a vision instead of compromising for the mewlings of those who's minds are like little square boxes, and who cannot even understand that if they had been presented with recoverable planes from the beginning, they would have been fine with it, but it is only change which they cannot handle. A tiny minority compared to the final audience of this great game.

Hmm... I don't think that's an accurate description Lightzy. I would avoid blatantly insulting people by literally calling them cry-babies, it's not the best way to present an argument. Besides, it antagonizes people, and that should be avoided.

As far as the actual issue, I just don't like the hand-holding, and the blatant lack of realism. Yes, you are correct in that the game should focus on the ground combat, with the air combat being secondary to that. However, making planes indestructible is not the way to do it. For one, it makes the player feel as if they aren't being trusted to take care of their own planes. It also makes the alien weaponry sound really weak, since a battleship vs a condor cannot destroy it, no matter how hard it tries. It'll always be fixed within a week or so. This is absolutely ridiculous, and makes a mockery of the aliens by effectively making their UFO might worthless. I mean, if they can't even destroy a single plane, what good are they? Does this mean that airliners are not destroyed, but are simply damaged and recovered within 72 hours? That's obviously an exaggeration, but the point is still valid; why balance things when you can simply make it impossible to actually lose? You are only at most inconvenienced by the "loss" of an air combat; after 72 hours plus X of repair time, you'll have a perfectly useable plane sitting in your hanger.

Now, again, I agree that the focus should be the ground combat, not the air, but making the air combat a farce by taking out the main penalty for playing poorly isn't the way to do it.

My suggestion would in effect do the same thing, gameplay wise, as the indestructible interceptors mechanic would; an emergency disengage button in the air combat that has the pilot do a forced landing. This would have to be done while the plane still had health, however; if you died you would be dead, and it'd be totally your fault, too, since such a system in place would allow you to escape the battle rapidly, at the cost of 72 hours plus repair time.

If you are interested, please read the rest of it and let me know what you think via the comments of that thread.

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/6250-Alternative-Mechanic-to-Indestructible-Interceptors-Designed-to-Please-Everyone

Thanks

[StellarRat]

None-destructible planes is the best thing to have happened to xenonauts. It will put the focus of the game back where it should be.

Thank you very much

I'd have hoped that they would automatically disengage when too damaged, because after all, all xeno craft are faster and more agile than all alien craft under atmospheric conditions, so it makes 100% sense, but I suppose recovering them, while not as sensible or fun, is still something.

I hope the xeno team always stick with a vision instead of compromising for the mewlings of those who's minds are like little square boxes, and who cannot even understand that if they had been presented with recoverable planes from the beginning, they would have been fine with it, but it is only change which they cannot handle. A tiny minority compared to the final audience of this great game.

The worst change ever. Why does the Earth have fear from aliens if they can't even destroy a slightly modified F16? If I were a world leader I'd propose to simply blacken the skies with 10s of thousands of Condors and blow aliens out of the skies. If there is no chance of aircraft destruction the strategic advantage switches in Earth's favor in no time. Why would a country even turn if they know they have to win in the end?

This solves nothing and makes the game silly. The problem was already solved when the price for aircraft was lowered IMO. This is the first change that actually makes me not want to play as much.

Edited July 7, 2013 by StellarRat

[Lightzy]

The worst change ever. Why does the Earth have fear from aliens if they can't even destroy a slightly modified F16?

This solves nothing and makes the game silly. The problem was already solved when the price for aircraft was lowered IMO. This is the first change that actually makes me not want to play as much.

Rofl, when you present it like that I gotta agree )

But you know, the problem wasn't solved when aircraft cost was lowered, because I built so many aircraft so fast that I could go through aircraft and aliens with no discretion whatsoever

Gizmo: Your suggestion sounds like exactly what I suggested back then, except that you also need to press an emergency disengage button. Why not just have the craft automatically disengage when under a certain % of health?

[Gordon]

Because then you can choose not to use it. And others can use the pink "Sissy" button!!!

[ThunderGr]

Gizmo: Your suggestion sounds like exactly what I suggested back then, except that you also need to press an emergency disengage button. Why not just have the craft automatically disengage when under a certain % of health?

Because it deprives you of your right to fight to death if you feel like it is important. Automatically means I have no control over it. It can be that there is this time that you need to damage that damn UFO as much as possible, even if you need to crash your fighter on it, so that the next squadron can bring it down. Automatically disengaging does not let you do that.

[Clamp]

I've just had a cursory look through the posts. I can understand that immortal planes makes things feel a little less real for people. I like the idea of a % chance to recover but I also like the idea about having a recovery mission. I think this could really add a new dimension to the game play. It would also be really important late game when the aliens would go all out to destroy the superior interceptors. There could even be an option to have the local forces recover the craft - less chance of success or maybe they even keep the technology and reduce their payments to you accordingly as they feel they don't need you.... gosh they are so fickle.

[enobayram]

My two cents is that I believe non-destructible planes go against the atmosphere of this game. I really like the feeling of "oh god, am I glad to have you still in one piece" whenever I open the base screen and see my fighters in their hangars. I really like the depressing, unforgiving and brutal attitude of this game. I would like to preemptively request the devs not to make the destructible planes an exclusive feature of the insane mode, since that's not what I want. I want a game I can beat if I'm really really careful, but one that doesn't forgive mistakes. If you're thinking in the lines that air combat shouldn't get in the way of ground combat, maybe you should remove it completely. After all, if it's not important, it's a chore...

I think having the save/load option in non-iron man mode already alleviates the "problem" of plane destruction being a very big problem. Maybe you should simply implement an auto-save strategy that lets causal players undo air battles easily. Who plays Xenonauts causally anyway?

P.S: I'd argue against %chance of recovery, since it's annoying to depend on pure chance in such a matter with possibly game ending consequences.

Edited July 7, 2013 by enobayram

[Dranak]

I hope the xeno team always stick with a vision instead of compromising for the mewlings of those who's minds are like little square boxes, and who cannot even understand that if they had been presented with recoverable planes from the beginning, they would have been fine with it, but it is only change which they cannot handle. A tiny minority compared to the final audience of this great game.

If I had seen immortal aircraft when I was reading up on this game before buying it, I would have hated the very idea, assumed a lot of other features were equally lame/watered down and not bought it. And seriously, just because we disagree with you is no reason for insults.

There are other ways (mainly economic) to put the focus back on ground combat.

[ThunderGr]

I hope the xeno team always stick with a vision instead of compromising for the mewlings of those who's minds are like little square boxes, and who cannot even understand that if they had been presented with recoverable planes from the beginning, they would have been fine with it, but it is only change which they cannot handle. A tiny minority compared to the final audience of this great game.

Whatever you say may and will be used against you.

According to the posts all over the forums, looks like the minority is the ones wanting indestructible aircraft. I have never been in favor of the "majority is always right" kind of thing, though. So, it is not only that most people do not like it, but they also have very good arguments about why it is not good for gameplay. Now, your arguments go to the area of "sticking with a vision", "mewlings who's minds are like little square boxes" because they(we) "cannot understand that, if it was here from the beginning, they(we) be fine with it" and that it is "only change they(we) cannot handle".

So, let me tell you something you did not know. If indestructible interceptors where in the game from the beginning(that is, included in the descriptions of the game I read about), I would not have bought it.

Many changes have been taking place in the game, yet, there are only a few of them that gets the "mewlings"(like me) upset. So, it is not the change, it is what the change does, but, of course, since I have a mind "like little square box", what do I know, right?

Your arguments are so overwhelming that all "non mewlings" with "round minds" must have been convinced by them.

Edited July 7, 2013 by ThunderGr

[Jossis]

I don't like the way the planes are recoverable it does go against the whole "every thing is destructible" in Xnauts. At first it will be nice when you build that first Marauder and you don't want to lose it. But After that its just disappointing.

Having this feature toggle between the two for the those that want it simple to learn the game and then to turn it off for when they want to play it normally. I think this would fix it for everyone. That's just my opinion.

I just wish the crashes to desktop would stop. >.>

[robertdg]

ahh ty this is what iv been waiting on i haven't played after v19.2 because the air fights got just to messy but this is a good update really made it more fun for me :-) ill be testing this version for as long it is. nicely done

[Mytheos]

None-destructible planes is the best thing to have happened to xenonauts. It will put the focus of the game back where it should be.

Thank you very much

I'd have hoped that they would automatically disengage when too damaged, because after all, all xeno craft are faster and more agile than all alien craft under atmospheric conditions, so it makes 100% sense, but I suppose recovering them, while not as sensible or fun, is still something.

I hope the xeno team always stick with a vision instead of compromising for the mewlings of those who's minds are like little square boxes, and who cannot even understand that if they had been presented with recoverable planes from the beginning, they would have been fine with it, but it is only change which they cannot handle. A tiny minority compared to the final audience of this great game.

I cant even tell if you are being sarcastic or serious. I assume serious as you previous said this was a good change before...

You really think UFOs wouldnt be as fast or agile under atmospheric conditions? Based on what? Our planes are a rockets with wings and navigate by changing air flow with flaps.

Theirs use anti gravity technology.

[DNK]

Idea for Fixing Indestructible Interceptors

Please give feedback

The only fix is to remove it.

The best way to fix the campaign difficulty (in particular the air war) is to simply retweak costs and build times. Particularly base costs and new plane costs. Troop transports in particular shouldn't cost multiple Foxtrots' worth just to slightly decrease ground combat difficulty. Prices are out of whack, and I see that the new build does tweak them more into reasonable territory, but what about bases or starting funds?

[Mytheos]

I'll throw up another vote on the "I wouldnt have bought the game had I read about immortal planes" pile.

I would however have bought it if myself now, went back in time and told myself then reading that, it is still a great game so far, and I really dont think the devs are going to cave to the point this ends up making you sad like XCOM2012.

[Mytheos]

The only fix is to remove it.

The best way to fix the campaign difficulty (in particular the air war) is to simply retweak costs and build times. Particularly base costs and new plane costs. Troop transports in particular shouldn't cost multiple Foxtrots' worth just to slightly decrease ground combat difficulty. Prices are out of whack, and I see that the new build does tweak them more into reasonable territory, but what about bases or starting funds?

I agree it should be relooked at and something different should be done.

Any of the suggested ideas so far from % chance of loss, to Emergency Disengage, to crash lands and "may" be recovered by sending your dropship on a recovery type mission, would be better.

I'm even fond of Sending requests to Funding Nations to "ask" for a plane and suffering a points penalty for a granted or denied response. Which is like a funky loan with interest system in which you loose more money (Monthly Funding over time) overall but it doesnt bring the game to a standstill.

But I dont think simply tweaking the economy will solve the issue.

Loss needs to have some weight to it, you loose a 100k Condor and you feel loss right? Why? Because 100k is a lot of money to just light on fire, and the time lost replacing it hurts too.

You loose a soldier and you feel loss too, but they only cost 10k, which is peanuts. But they level up and become MUCH more valuable and the amount of time and effort to replace a Col. or Commander is...a painful loss.

Point is you can give players more money at the start but good ones wont use it to replace Condors and they will invest it in weapons, armor and base construction and thus unbalancing one thing to attempt to balance another.

You could however adjust the price as by midgame condors are essentially worthless, and it'd only really impact the early game.

But that still doesnt solve it, as you cant really find a solid balance between I feel loss and am taking this serious because of it, and whatever who cares, peanuts...as "Eh sucks but whatever I guess" isnt really much different than "who cares?".

You have $$$, and time as the only balancing factors currently...and keep in mind those both become more complex when you add in the money lost because missing the plane early game might mean missing a chance to shoot down and loot a craft, researchable items lost, research time lost because you otherwise have nothing to research (possibly) as well as points with Funding Nations.

So really price of the plane and repair/recovery times = a cost...but what that cost REALLY is...well it depends on several other random factors that could more than double the overall "cost"...or not.

Which is why I dont really think the emergency disengage solves it either, and you are simply keeping the same thing as Immortal Planes, save for the fact you do have to be slightly more careful, and get less efficiency out of your plane. (You're immortal, so just do whatever damage you can before you die, vs well I'll use emergency disengage so my plane maybe did less damage because it didnt suicide.)

It does change the "cost" and efficiency and give players more control...slightly...but its just the same thing wrapped in a more initially acceptable package.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Mytheos

[wcanyon]

- Air combat missiles now have extra fuel so they can catch retreating/turning UFOs more reliably

looks like imba cous ufo cant evade from rocets. i think on insane must be off that extra fuel

Speak English please.

[thothkins]

hate cross posting, but this one seems to have spread out a little, so just to add tuppence here with a possible solution

Issues

Loss of aircraft is prohibitive in current game.

Reliable recovery of indestructible aircraft from remote/extreme/oceanic environments breaks immersion.

Xenonaut aircraft (possibly damaged) always escaping to make emergency landings against superior foes breaks immersion.

Perception of indestructible aircraft is one of pandering and hand holding.

Solution

Condors are free. They take 72 hours to be sent from funding nations and to be upgraded.

More advanced craft are also free, but with varying delivery times. [smoitessier added "but need Alenium from you" as a possibility here too.]

Either :-

1) Gatling lasers et al, also become free as per alenium torpedoes following their research.

Or

2) All weapon systems must be manufactured. This includes an alenium torpedo/ alenium missile launcher for each craft. To keep some actual cost in losing air combat.

Both provide consistent solutions across all aircraft weaponry, rather than the mixed approach currently in place.

Reasoning

A large number of assets in Xenonauts are already free. Ballistic Weapons & ammo, grenades & their enhancements, Stun weapons, base facility updates such as defences, medical equipment, advanced weapon tier ammunition and, importantly here, aircraft ammunition and missiles.

With infinite amounts of the technology available in 1979 provided free to the player, it is odd that the Condor, containing no alien technology, cannot be provided free by the huge aerospace producing nations of the world.

Later in the game, it is expected that local forces begin to shoot down smaller UFOS. This means they have the air capability and aerospace infrastructure in place to do so. So having them be capable of supplying craft to Xenonauts in far smaller numbers ties in nicely to that.

Another tie in is with the crashed UFOs that produce no ground combat missions. Fighters for example. As the wrecks must crash somewhere, there's no reason why they can't be collected by the funding nations they land in. Those alloys and that alenium, from those wrecks, support their advanced aerospace.

The know how to build the craft comes directly form the completion of the Xenonauts research programmes being distributed to the funding nations.

There are no individual pilots, so there's no experience or training to be lost. Pilots are supplied by the funding nations along with their craft.

Pros

- No crippling costs for players as they deal with air combat.

- Reduces importance of air combat to overall success of game itself. 1 lost mission with 3 destroyed craft will not be game ending.

- Tension is fully retained in air combat

- Sense of permadeath maintained in game

- No perception of hand-holding, molly coddling or whatever other criticism.

- A solution for both camps (hopefully)

- No additional mechanics, buttons, hand-wavium or anything else required.

- 72 hour delivery time for Condors is equal to that of recovery of indestructible aircraft.

- Delivery times of advanced aircraft would match the recovery time + some of the repair time of indestructible advanced aircraft.

- Promotes the spread of Xenonauts into other funding nations.

- Prevents Goldhawk from being sued by the makers of the A-team for having no one ever die in a crash.

Controls

Available Hanger space still controls the number of aircraft you can receive from funding nations.

Game economy controls availability of funds to build hangers. Their cost/maintenance of hangers can be balanced accordingly.

Current game economy makes spreading into new territory or building facilities at normal level very hard. So Hanger spamming should already be limited.

Cons

Xenonauts has progressively made a number of items free or automatically updated. As a result, manufacturing has become less important in the game. Free aircraft & possibly all ammunition for them adds to that list. There are solutions, but out with the scope of this post.

[ThunderGr]

hate cross posting, but this one seems to have spread out a little, so just to add tuppence here with a possible solution

Since you hate cross-posting you could have just put a link to the relevant post, as you have done for other issues. Obviously, you think the issue important enough to make sure people will not skip clicking on your link .

[jazzglands]

hate cross posting, but this one seems to have spread out a little, so just to add tuppence here with a possible solution

Issues

Loss of aircraft is prohibitive in current game.

Reliable recovery of indestructible aircraft from remote/extreme/oceanic environments breaks immersion.

Xenonaut aircraft (possibly damaged) always escaping to make emergency landings against superior foes breaks immersion.

Perception of indestructible aircraft is one of pandering and hand holding.

Solution

Condors are free. They take 72 hours to be sent from funding nations and to be upgraded.

More advanced craft are also free, but with varying delivery times. [smoitessier added "but need Alenium from you" as a possibility here too.]

Either :-

1) Gatling lasers et al, also become free as per alenium torpedoes following their research.

Or

2) All weapon systems must be manufactured. This includes an alenium torpedo/ alenium missile launcher for each craft. To keep some actual cost in losing air combat.

Both provide consistent solutions across all aircraft weaponry, rather than the mixed approach currently in place.

Reasoning

A large number of assets in Xenonauts are already free. Ballistic Weapons & ammo, grenades & their enhancements, Stun weapons, base facility updates such as defences, medical equipment, advanced weapon tier ammunition and, importantly here, aircraft ammunition and missiles.

With infinite amounts of the technology available in 1979 provided free to the player, it is odd that the Condor, containing no alien technology, cannot be provided free by the huge aerospace producing nations of the world.

Later in the game, it is expected that local forces begin to shoot down smaller UFOS. This means they have the air capability and aerospace infrastructure in place to do so. So having them be capable of supplying craft to Xenonauts in far smaller numbers ties in nicely to that.

Another tie in is with the crashed UFOs that produce no ground combat missions. Fighters for example. As the wrecks must crash somewhere, there's no reason why they can't be collected by the funding nations they land in. Those alloys and that alenium, from those wrecks, support their advanced aerospace.

The know how to build the craft comes directly form the completion of the Xenonauts research programmes being distributed to the funding nations.

There are no individual pilots, so there's no experience or training to be lost. Pilots are supplied by the funding nations along with their craft.

Pros

- No crippling costs for players as they deal with air combat.

- Reduces importance of air combat to overall success of game itself. 1 lost mission with 3 destroyed craft will not be game ending.

- Tension is fully retained in air combat

- Sense of permadeath maintained in game

- No perception of hand-holding, molly coddling or whatever other criticism.

- A solution for both camps (hopefully)

- No additional mechanics, buttons, hand-wavium or anything else required.

- 72 hour delivery time for Condors is equal to that of recovery of indestructible aircraft.

- Delivery times of advanced aircraft would match the recovery time + some of the repair time of indestructible advanced aircraft.

- Promotes the spread of Xenonauts into other funding nations.

- Prevents Goldhawk from being sued by the makers of the A-team for having no one ever die in a crash.

Controls

Available Hanger space still controls the number of aircraft you can receive from funding nations.

Game economy controls availability of funds to build hangers. Their cost/maintenance of hangers can be balanced accordingly.

Current game economy makes spreading into new territory or building facilities at normal level very hard. So Hanger spamming should already be limited.

Cons

Xenonauts has progressively made a number of items free or automatically updated. As a result, manufacturing has become less important in the game. Free aircraft & possibly all ammunition for them adds to that list. There are solutions, but out with the scope of this post.

I like this. It removes the prohibitive cost of air combat without requiring the devs to add in a bunch of new mechanics this late in the process.

I'd say that advanced aircraft should not be free though. With free condors, the player has all the strategic tools necessary to protect their expensive planes.

[Selvhan]

I've been experienced the air battle a little and I'm not quite sure what to think about it.

Xenonauts Condor :

They are the 1st ship you have and they are ok if the missile hit. If the missile fail to hit they are dead. The auto-cannon is too bad because your ship is too fragile.

Foxtrot Now only have 2 long range missile. They are useful but once again, if they fail to hit or to kill the target, your plane is going to get destroy.

Yes they are "invulnerable" but 3 days in the hangar is game breaking.

Also, what's the point in intercepting the fighters ? They are always destroyed and you risk to lose your aircraft.

My conclusion is as follow :

If the game stay like this , you have to be able to load more missile and you should be able to change the missile type on your plane. The plane will have to cost less and maybe having multi plane per hangar. At Veteran, In few days, I've seen around 12 to 15 fighters and a couple of medium at the beginning of the 2nd month ! It's impossible to get them all, because you will lack fuel or your plane will be in reparation.

Alien fighter should gives you a small amount of materials.

The dodge should be a side move on a side then immediate side move the face the target again.

So far I think that's about it.

[Zimdictive]

Our planes are a rockets with wings...

I think you need to inform yourself as to the nature of a rocket, and how it is an entirely different thing to an air-breathing jet aircraft.

[Mytheos]

I think you need to inform yourself as to the nature of a rocket, and how it is an entirely different thing to an air-breathing jet aircraft.

It was a generalization. Your point doesnt help explain why we would have planes with superior maneuvering vs UFOs with superior technology.

Commenting on how ours are better than a metaphorical comment doesnt add anything to the point of the comment.