Elydo

Knockback Mechanics. [Derailed]

47 posts in this topic

This came up in the cover thread, and whilst I don't think it's so important as to create a fuss over, given that some discussion was engendered by it I felt that the creation of a new thread could be justified.

Plus it's an excuse for me to create my first thread on either forum. Go me!

Anyway, should knockback be included as a mechanic in the game, I can see two potential ways it could be done: either give all weapons a knockback value appropriate to the weapon and create an equation for determining if a successful hit upon an enemy will lead to it being knocked back, or create/alter a specific weapon for the purpose of imparting the effect. I would offer my own suggestion of; if a specific weapon is to be created, have it only cause knockback, not damage. Make it a tactical choice.

Chris has already mentioned the problems with extra animations, which may well be the main reason why the idea is stillborn, but leaving that aside, there are gameplay reasons as to why this would be a bad mechanic to include; cheap fights involving teams of soldiers armed with knockback guns laughing at the melee aliens probably in the game, damage equations modelling falling/impact/environmental damage rather than weapon-related (if you knockback an alien into a wall, does it take damage and how much?) etc

Likewise, there are also some interesting reasons for considering it: potting aliens off high places, keeping those damn melee aliens away from your squishy little bodies, laughing at the hilarity of setting the ground on fire then knocking aliens into it, laughing harder at the hilarity of wiring a building before pushing all the aliens into it and dropping it on them... you get my drift : )

Nope, we don't have any knockback weapons yet. It's an interesting idea, although we'd have to think carefully about how it would work in-game. Shooting an alien off the roof of a building would be pretty awesome though. I suspect the animations required would be too much trouble though.
- Chris' current word on the idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All this animation talk, phooey!

My favorite tactics games just have a dude instantly appear in the tile he's being knocked to and a big sound effect let you know what happened! No animation necessary!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah but that would be very out of character with the rest of the game Wolfpox.

Dont forget Elydo, that there is also the opportunity with knockback weapons to knock enemies out of cover (negating a whole lot of the cover save).

Also original forum where this spawned from is here: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php?47-Breaking-enemies-out-of-cover.

I agree though, I personally like the idea of knockback specific weaponry. After all, ballistic weapons don't really do it, and laser and plasma guns, I guess they can do whatever the devs want, but realistically I don't think they would either. So therefore specific weapons that allow knockback as opposed to damage (with the potential to cause damage however) would be a nice tactics changer.

Also balance against melee units? Well perhaps it only pushes them back a certain number of spaces.

And perhaps it doesn't have to cause damage at all, even when making them hit a wall (if they fall off a roof though that's different). Perhaps these knock back weapons could be the stun gun thingys, so you have a chance to knock the enemy back, and any damage done also stuns. That way larger enemies who would not get knocked back, could still be stunned this way, and you wouldn't have to run up to every melee enemy with a stun baton to stun them!

Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the amount of work it would take to implement this the actual advances in how the game plays would be quite slim.

It would be a nice visual touch. It's always satisfying sending an enemy corpse flying into a wall with a well placed rocket, no matter how it's presented. However as AD said it needs to keep with the theme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To accelerate something human-sized enough to produce a useful knockback, you really need explosives.

Something grenade-sized at the minimum.

Plasma or laser weapons don't move noticable mass. They melt holes into their targets.

Things like gauss / hypervelocity weapons are basically slugthrowers but use high bullet speeds that are intended to punch holes through the target instead of flatten themselves on the target and transfer all that kinetic energy to it.

A low-velocity slugthrower like a shotgun is probably your best bet but it would have to have a monstrous kick (on the firer) because the kinetic energy must come from somewhere.

The amount it "pushes" against the firer is the exact amount it can "push" against the target.

The only practical way to do that is to use a recoilless rifle of epic proportions. Something 30mm+ at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or something with some Sci-Fi explanation of some sort or another. Something like:

"the thermo-translucent gamma coils in the firing chamber produce a beam of bright light and photon energy that hyper-compresses the intervening air particles, erupting them in front of the target, causing a sudden, and violent burst, forcing the target backwards."

I have no idea what that means, and I'm fairly certain it makes no sense whatsoever, but it kind of sounds plausible doesn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So its a laser...sonic...cannon?

While they would be fun, the animations would be alot of work. Having units being thrown around by unnecessarily large explosions would be awesome though. Something for a 3D sequel maybe? Ragdolling our way to victory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or a rocket launcher round with a non-lethal warhead, something that expands before impact to hit the target with a large surface area. Higher technology could lead to other approaches; a fissionable pellet fired from a rifle which is then detonated by a laser from the same rifle, creating a small shaped explosion before the target resulting in a focused shockwave against the target, for instance. Handwaving allowing for it actually working the way we SAY it works. Or a similar effect using plasma expansion/detonation. Hell, we could make up something about adapting ufo gravity control into a focused gravitic-impetus gun.

AD: Errrrrrrr... Yeah. Sure. Thermo-translucency sounds plausible... : P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about... wait for it... wait for it... wait for it a bit longer...

TELEPORT GUNS!

Low ammo (costs a lot of power to teleport), and short ranged (it's really powerful tech, but very cumbersome)

You shoot someone and then you choose to teleport them closer or further away (either putting them out of cover, or bringing them to the wrong side of cover for instance). This way there is no extra animation needed (other than a white light etc) and the unit will just appear in the same pose they were last in, and then modify from there!

Doesn't fix the problem for the falling animation when you teleport them off the roof top though I guess...

But still! It could even give you a reason to shoot your own men! (instant flanking by teleporting through that wall over there? Imagine breaching an alien ship through a wall, without HE Sathra (not that that would ever occur to you otherwise), or even better, imagine teleporting HE inside a ship! (ok blaster bomb problems here, but come on! Teleporting!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Or something with some Sci-Fi explanation of some sort or another. Something like:

"the thermo-translucent gamma coils in the firing chamber produce a beam of bright light and photon energy that hyper-compresses the intervening air particles, erupting them in front of the target, causing a sudden, and violent burst, forcing the target backwards."

I have no idea what that means, and I'm fairly certain it makes no sense whatsoever, but it kind of sounds plausible doesn't it?

That description is a bit similar to a Pulsed Energy Projectile gun. It's a laser weapon that creates a small amount of exploding plasma at the target, stunning and knocking the opponent off their feet.

The game should already include animations for aliens/soldiers falling down (due to falling unconscious), so it shouldn't be a burden to re-use those animations for 'knockback'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It wouldn't really work, the death/stun animations are basically the unit staggering and dropping on their face.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow ... just ... wow

Having units being thrown around by unnecessarily large explosions would be awesome though. Something for a 3D sequel maybe? Ragdolling our way to victory.

This would be some severe epic *bleep* right there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So its a laser...sonic...cannon?

Naw. Make it a SUPER SONIC laser beam!

It's faster than a laser (being super sonic, too), so it must have more punch!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brilliant!

It's no "useless melee weapon" because it's a gun and it definitely has a knockback effect!

How about weights? Can we drop 10 ton weights on aliens, too? Or Pianos?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a one handed weapon so the other hand can use advanced brushes that paint 'holes' onto walls for aliens to run into.

Instant stun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is a one handed weapon so the other hand can use advanced brushes that paint 'holes' onto walls for aliens to run into.

Instant stun.

Meep meep!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you guys are taking the mickey!

Though I'm not exactly sure of whom, but I feel it might be me... =P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you guys are taking the mickey!

Though I'm not exactly sure of whom, but I feel it might be me... =P

Who's taking me ... oh wait ... I see what you did there :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not certain either, it is my thread. Yet I'm also taking the mick. Hmm... It could be I just don't respect my own ideas... ^^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, between teleport guns, supersonic lasers (wtf?), and pianos dropped from low orbit, I don't think this thread is recoverable.

I blame you. (for values of you)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two of those ideas are yours : P

And a supersonic laser is just a tautology.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now