The XCOM veteran's two main reasons the XCOM:EU game is bad.

[djlogue]

LOL at the whole ending bad etheral story....."YESSS WE PLANNED ALL THIS, WE KNEW YOU WOULD DECIDE TO RESEARCH OUR TECH" I was like "Codswallop" that's like me saying "I let you win"

[licker]

I have completed the game on Impossible vanilla and on Impossible with SW, with M 1.99, DR and RD, and without any easymods like BA's WSE. You almost certainly haven't. What makes you consider yourself qualified to teach me on how to play the game?

I almost certainly have not done what? Completed the game on I/I? ROFLMAO at I/V. Essentially though, you are simply wrong, maybe you are not very good at the game, I don't know, I don't care. What I do know is that there is precious little reason to save piles of corpses, and piles of corpses is usually what you wind up with. Especially on Impossible, since you know... there are more aliens and all that... and... even more especially on Marathon, since, again, even more aliens over the time it takes to finish research projects.

Your fighters - and that's all you have by the time stronger UFOs start appearing, with SW+M+DR, and intercept on mission=1, it's a while before you get a Firestorm - get toasted without consumables. Getting toasted or letting UFOs go raises panic and screws up the funding.

Err... there's more than one way to shoot down a UFO. I never, and I mean NEVER, build consumables. I probably should, but meh, you don't really need to. You can just send up to 4 Interceptors at the UFO, and that's usually good enough. Granted, that's expensive (in maintenance, hello NA bonus!), but it's an alternative. Upgrade to plasma cannons ASAP, and you don't even need firestorms for anything other than a battleship. Now that's a legit criticism of the NG though, the alien ships are fairly uninteresting unless you force the battleships to come.

Also, letting UFOs go can increase panic, but does nothing to your funding, unless the country leaves as a result.

Letting UFOs go can lead to battleships showing up (and indeed people do this intentionally to get battleships), but that's not guaranteed either. Battleships can lead to panic and loss of funding if they shoot down a sat.

You haven't been following the discussion, or you'd know already.

I've followed it, you just do not present cogent arguments.

You have misunderstood the subject. It's that these specs are exactly the same for all weapons in EU12. At least UD had ammo for plasma and not for lasers.

What specs? Ammo? That's not a spec, there's simply a different mechanic involved in how they treat ammo in EU than the OG. And that mechanic is 'cleaner' in that you don't need to bother equipping 10s of clips, though you do still need to bother to take a turn to reload as necessary. Like the abstraction or don't like it, it boils down to basically the same thing in the end. Also pistols do have purely unlimited ammo without ever needing a reload. And you can even do some decent damage with pistols if you build your sniper that way.

In UD I brought along weapons other than HP because HP is easy to get a hold of on Cydonia, because for 26 soldiers you need to manage inventory tightly, and because they had utility.

Before you ask why did I need 26 soldiers, I played without save-scumming and for fastest time, so they weren't ubercolonels.

I never had to manage inventory tightly, and the utility of other weapons was purely cosmetic. I don't care why you wanted 26 soldiers either, a lot of people liked having 26 soldiers, I found it tedious and unwieldy. That's not to say it's bad, I just didn't like the micro hell it entailed. Now skip ahead to EU, and wow, a tight squad of 4-6 (or less if you want) with varying abilities and weapon choices. That tickled me in the right place.

But rather than just admit that different mechanics can be fun for different people, you want to tell me I'm retarded, and prove that EU is for dummies and no one with a brain could possibly have anything good to say about it.

[HWP]

I almost certainly have not done what? Completed the game on I/I? ROFLMAO at I/V. Essentially though, you are simply wrong, maybe you are not very good at the game

If you claim to find the game overly easy on Impossible (even vanilla), you are either much better than everyone else or not entirely honest. The game is actually possible to lose on that difficulty level without intentionally throwing it, due to high randomness.

What I do know is that there is precious little reason to save piles of corpses, and piles of corpses is usually what you wind up with. Especially on Impossible, since you know... there are more aliens and all that... and... even more especially on Marathon, since, again, even more aliens over the time it takes to finish research projects.

If you stretch out your game, there comes a point when you can sell off some excess corpses, but most of the time it's "meet new species, kill new species, stockpile a couple dozen their corpses". They are an order of magnitude more valuable for item production, requests, production to fill requests than the pittance you are paid on the 'gray market'.

You can just send up to 4 Interceptors at the UFO, and that's usually good enough.

It's suboptimal. Consumables are cheaper. Corpses are worth almost nothing when sold. So using them you don't waste as much money, which with Diminishing Returns is always tight.

Granted, that's expensive (in maintenance, hello NA bonus!), but it's an alternative. Upgrade to plasma cannons ASAP, and you don't even need firestorms for anything other than a battleship.

Which by the way comes up for every potential terror mission with intercept on mission enabled.

Also, letting UFOs go can increase panic, but does nothing to your funding, unless the country leaves as a result.

Incorrect. That only applies in the vanilla, which you seem to scoff at.

With SW - which implies most options on, and I explicitly mentioned RD on - funding decreases with panic level. Panic 4 pays almost nothing.

I've followed it

Strange then that you didn't notice that the discussion was clearly about weapons, in that case.

Armor is simple: use Archangel for snipers to exploit High Ground; use Ghost for everyone else; use anything else only if you find the game too easy.

Perks are even simpler: every time there is the right choice and the wrong one. Yes, you can make a snap shot sniper, but that's dumber than ending turns with the "end turn" button instead of Overwatch.

Also pistols do have purely unlimited ammo without ever needing a reload. And you can even do some decent damage with pistols if you build your sniper that way.

Yes. More damage than proper weapons for other classes even.

I don't care why you wanted 26 soldiers either, a lot of people liked having 26 soldiers, I found it tedious and unwieldy.

Because none of them was even Captain. They go down easily on Cydonia, you need capacity to absorb losses or it's game over.

I don't have a habit of stretching one playthrough for 10 years only to have a yawning walkover fight at the end.

and no one with a brain could possibly have anything good to say about it.

That is not so; I even presented an example of an intelligent argument in its defense. I've said a few good things about it myself as well.

But the fact is, most defense of the 2012 game that you see comes down to ignorant dismissal of everything that made X-Com - X-Com, followed by childish delight with trivial or poorly implemented features.

Almost all of the new "features" are created by taking away options and choices that were standard for every soldier in the original, and that only make sense as such, then giving them back to you as class perks.

Edited January 28, 2013 by HWP

[licker]

If you claim to find the game overly easy on Impossible (even vanilla), you are either much better than everyone else or not entirely honest. The game is actually possible to lose on that difficulty level without intentionally throwing it, due to high randomness.

Did I say it was easy? No. Apparently I mistook what you meant by vanilla, vanilla implies non-ironman. Of course, non-ironman is a cake walk if you want it to be that way. The game is clearly possible to lose, and many attempts should be loses, on ironman at least. There is a large rogue-like effect in the randomness.

If you stretch out your game, there comes a point when you can sell off some excess corpses, but most of the time it's "meet new species, kill new species, stockpile a couple dozen their corpses". They are an order of magnitude more valuable for item production, requests, production to fill requests than the pittance you are paid on the 'gray market'.

I sell off corpses almost as soon as I get them to keep the engineering projects rolling. I can still beat the game. Your contention that you can't sell corpses (and be successful in game) is simply incorrect. Another example of your assumption that you know better than anyone else. You don't.

It's poor tactics. Consumables are cheaper. Corpses are worth almost nothing when sold. So using them you don't waste as much money, which with Diminishing Returns is always tight.

It's not tactics even, it's a strategic decision to invest in multiple fighters, and to limit your exposure from satellites to only 2 continents early so that you can afford it. It also works. It may or may not be optimal, that's a different discussion. Panic is not so totally unmanageable from failing to shoot down UFOs (as opposed to ignoring them) that you can't send up a fighter and recall it if it can't shoot down the UFO. It's also the strategy of how you manage the continents, and if you are willing to let countries/continents go or not.

Which by the way comes up for every potential terror mission with intercept on mission enabled.

Which is a mod and not vanilla nor 2nd wave. Harder or easier... debatable. More UFO missions means more goodies compared to simple abduction missions.

Incorrect. That only applies in the vanilla, which you seem to scoff at.

With SW - which implies most options on, and I explicitly mentioned RD on - funding decreases with panic level. Panic 4 pays almost nothing.

Fair enough. Yet you also said you played Vanilla.

Strange then that you didn't notice that the discussion was clearly about weapons, in that case.

I did, but your comments on them were nonsensical, which is why I wondered if you were talking about something else.

Armor is simple: use Archangel for snipers to exploit High Ground; use Ghost for everyone else; use anything else only if you find the game too easy.

Again, there is more than one way to do this. Psi armor obviously, but also Titan is perfect in some situations and AA is very poor for some maps. Matter of fact I rarely bother with AA, not because it's not useful, but because I prefer Ghost for the sniper. Also depends on how you build your sniper. And again, the debate about optimal is interesting, but clearly, there are different builds which are effective.

Perks are even simpler: every time there is the right choice and the wrong one. Yes, you can make a snap shot sniper, but that's as dumb as not ending turns with overwatch.

*shrug* that's not even the best example of obvious choice, and it's not so obvious depending on how you want to play your snipers. Optimal build is great, but some of the fun is playing with a different team composition. Many people feel squad sight is just too powerful, so they play without it. Are they right or wrong? It's a game, play it how you want to play it. Kind of like in the OG, how you can just level everything with BBs and psi if that's how you want to do it.

Yes. More damage than proper weapons for other classes even.

More? Equal for plasma vs. light plasma, otherwise I don't think so. And light plasma isn't the 'proper' weapon for plasma tech either is it?

That is not so; I even presented an example of an intelligent argument in its defense. I've said a few good things about it myself as well.

But the fact is, most defense of the 2012 game that you see comes down to ignorant dismissal of everything that made X-Com - X-Com, followed by childish delight with trivial or poorly implemented features.

Almost all of the new "features" are created by taking away options and choices that were standard for every soldier in the original, and that only make sense as such, then giving them back to you as perks.

I don't see the same things you do then. Maybe we are looking in different places. What made XCom XCom is different for everyone anyway, and you will still persist to tell us that you somehow are the speaker for that topic as well.

Was it the TU system that made Xcom Xcom?

Was it the pointless and tedious equipping screen?

Was it the broken and trivial economic system?

Was it the layers of stats and information which wasn't really necessary?

Was it the combination of all of that?

Oh, of course, the above are my opinions, and I enjoyed UD quite a bit in it's day, though Apoc was actually my favorite XCom. It's clearly an excellent game. EU is a different game, cut from the same cloth, but taken in a different direction. Neither good nor bad, just different, which will appeal to some more than others.

It's not without it's warts, but neither was the OG. Preferring one over the other is fine, it's expected. Trashing one just doesn't make a lot of sense to me though. Implying that people who prefer one over the other are retarded is, well, retarded.

[djlogue]

LOL I smell UBERSAVES!!!

[Tacobandit]

Ghost armor is for wimps. Far better to use stimpaks with titan armor. Who cares if the enemy hits your 25+ HP assault when it only does 4 damage. Make him pay with a double tap to the face.

[HWP]

Did I say it was easy? No. Apparently I mistook what you meant by vanilla, vanilla implies non-ironman.

By Vanilla I meant no mods and no second wave.

I sell off corpses almost as soon as I get them to keep the engineering projects rolling.

So you are playing without Chitin Plating, without Combat Stims, and without Mind Shields?

And you do this on Second Wave with all options on and Ironman to boot?

It's not tactics even, it's a strategic decision to invest in multiple fighters, and to limit your exposure from satellites to only 2 continents early so that you can afford it. It also works.

It's quite difficult to block 3 continents with DR on, since it takes 9-10 satellites. The 9th satellite costs, IIRC, about 4,000.

You only have that kind of money later in the game. Although you can exploit the system by not building any satellites at all, then building 10 at once, which effectively bypasses DR. Though in that case you would rather go with building 20 straight away, to cover all but one countries and have spares for losses (since you won't be able to build any more).

Fair enough. Yet you also said you played Vanilla.

First I started V on Impossible (what's the point of playing on difficulties below maximum?), then, as information about SW was out, with SW with all options on.

Again, there is more than one way to do this. Psi armor obviously, but also Titan is perfect in some situations and AA is very poor for some maps. Matter of fact I rarely bother with AA, not because it's not useful, but because I prefer Ghost for the sniper.

Titan is just a couple extra HP and protection against things that don't matter. Ghost is a huge defense boost, serious mobility boost, and stealth on top. It's better every time.

Ghost Armor is the Heavy Plasma of EU12. The only times to use armors other than Ghost are AA for DGG snipers (the whole reason to get DGG), and, obviously, Psi for psionics.

*shrug* that's not even the best example of obvious choice, and it's not so obvious depending on how you want to play your snipers. Optimal build is great, but some of the fun is playing with a different team composition.

That one is quite obvious. Pistols for snipers are just far more effective than snap shot with the main weapon.

There are of course even more obvious choices... why did they even bother with the "executioner" perk?

Yes, you can play with suboptimal builds. But wasn't that your criticism of the OG - that once you got HP for everyone, most other weapons became suboptimal for fun only?

More? Equal for plasma vs. light plasma, otherwise I don't think so. And light plasma isn't the 'proper' weapon for plasma tech either is it?

It's still *a* proper weapon. That a pistol using the same tech can do more damage just shows how ad-hoc and detached from common sense the balancing is.

I don't see the same things you do then. Maybe we are looking in different places. What made XCom XCom is different for everyone anyway

Well, then, to your multiple trollish choice question - this is what made X-Com X-Com.

Unlike the new game, where everyone seems to be raving about fake choices (where one has "PICK ME" written all over in big red letters).

All they've done is take the old game, take away all your choices, then let you have some back as perks.

Really, how many new features can you name that are not a conditional re-enabling of something that was always available in the original?

Bullet Swarm, Double Tap... just make the moves freely usable as they should be.

Close Combat Spe... oh, they mean Reaction Fire.

Deep Pockets... hurray, a whole two-slot inventory!

[Tacobandit]

The only things that they took away was some gimmicky air combat features and having more than one skyranger. That's about it. Everything else is new. You can't compare the two movement systems because they both have pros and cons.

The TU system was great for moving and things that had set amounts of TUs, but bad for anything that used TU percentages. Your 80 TU supersoldier could shoot as many shots as your rookie.

The 2-move system is great for moving and shooting, but doesn't allow you to perform a variety of things with that soldier's turn. There is no counting TUs so that you don't stand right next to an alien and find out that you are 1 TU short of an auto shot. At the same time, you can't hose down an alien with 12 laser pistol shots either.

And reaction fire was iffy in the OG. It couldn't be used reliably, mainly because it was based on how much you had moved during the turn. You could have a full TU soldier stand next to a doorway, and he could still get zombified/shot because his Reaction score was crap. Whereas in the NG, reaction fire is much more reliable. If an alien moves in front of your soldier, he's not going to drool at him, he's going to use the gun in his hand.

If anything, the new game had fake choices. Hey a new fighter that... is worse than the firestorm and the avenger at the same time. Hey these are some neato radar dishes that... become obsolete within the first month (assuming you capture a navigator ASAP). Oh look, a rifle... that does almost the same amount of damage as the pistol. Oh look, some small rockets... that do less damage than the almost identical large rockets. I can go on if you want.

Oh look, plasma weapons... that are all inferior to the heavy plasma.

Oh look, Multiple item slots for weapons... that you don't want to put weapons in because your soldiers won't even be able to move.

Oh look, some neato spots for putting grenades... that you can't pull from your belt because you're 1 TU short.

Oh look, an alien... that is just a slow ass floater who can't fly (snakemen).

Oh look, Cydonia... which is just a base assault.

Oh look, craft weapons... that are all inferior to the plasma beam.

Oh look, Base defence... that was basically farm the aliens.

Oh look, a motion scanner... that is useless because it can't see more than 9 tiles.

Oh look, grenades... that are useless because they destroy each other and do wimpy damage (TFTD excluded)

Oh look, we got some neato flying suits... that only give you a 50% chance of surviving a hit from the aliens.

Oh look, some base defenses... that don't make the battleships go away.

[djlogue]

The only things that they took away was some gimmicky air combat features and having more than one skyranger. That's about it. Everything else is new. You can't compare the two movement systems because they both have pros and cons.

The TU system was great for moving and things that had set amounts of TUs, but bad for anything that used TU percentages. Your 80 TU supersoldier could shoot as many shots as your rookie.

The 2-move system is great for moving and shooting, but doesn't allow you to perform a variety of things with that soldier's turn. There is no counting TUs so that you don't stand right next to an alien and find out that you are 1 TU short of an auto shot. At the same time, you can't hose down an alien with 12 laser pistol shots either.

And reaction fire was iffy in the OG. It couldn't be used reliably, mainly because it was based on how much you had moved during the turn. You could have a full TU soldier stand next to a doorway, and he could still get zombified/shot because his Reaction score was crap. Whereas in the NG, reaction fire is much more reliable. If an alien moves in front of your soldier, he's not going to drool at him, he's going to use the gun in his hand.

If anything, the new game had fake choices. Hey a new fighter that... is worse than the firestorm and the avenger at the same time. Hey these are some neato radar dishes that... become obsolete within the first month (assuming you capture a navigator ASAP). Oh look, a rifle... that does almost the same amount of damage as the pistol. Oh look, some small rockets... that do less damage than the almost identical large rockets. I can go on if you want.

Oh look, plasma weapons... that are all inferior to the heavy plasma.

Oh look, Multiple item slots for weapons... that you don't want to put weapons in because your soldiers won't even be able to move.

Oh look, some neato spots for putting grenades... that you can't pull from your belt because you're 1 TU short.

Oh look, an alien... that is just a slow ass floater who can't fly (snakemen).

Oh look, Cydonia... which is just a base assault.

Oh look, craft weapons... that are all inferior to the plasma beam.

Oh look, Base defence... that was basically farm the aliens.

Oh look, a motion scanner... that is useless because it can't see more than 9 tiles.

Oh look, grenades... that are useless because they destroy each other and do wimpy damage (TFTD excluded)

Oh look, we got some neato flying suits... that only give you a 50% chance of surviving a hit from the aliens.

Oh look, some base defenses... that don't make the battleships go away.

Hey man, why so mean to UFOEU?? Sure it had some flaws but it was still an awesome game. You know you can play UFOEU with some really good mods that fix allot of those issues you mentioned there (like the infinite battleship bug) and some great rebalances and more incentive to use laser weapons. You can also change how psyonics work, and also disable blaster launchers. You should have a look at sebs ufo extender. It's really simple to use. You just change the values from a huge list of options in the notepad file and your away. As soon as I sort out my shit I'm gonna do some UFO and TFTD mod and hack showcase vids. I may even start it tonight

[Tacobandit]

Hey man, why so mean to UFOEU?? Sure it had some flaws but it was still an awesome game. You know you can play UFOEU with some really good mods that fix allot of those issues you mentioned there (like the infinite battleship bug) and some great rebalances and more incentive to use laser weapons. You can also change how psyonics work, and also disable blaster launchers. You should have a look at sebs ufo extender. It's really simple to use. You just change the values from a huge list of options in the notepad file and your away. As soon as I sort out my shit I'm gonna do some UFO and TFTD mod and hack showcase vids. I may even start it tonight

Yeah it was a pretty fun game I will admit, I still play it and EU2012. I actually don't know why I still like it. All I do is hose down aliens with massed rookie autoshot fire.

[Citizen844]

I bought XCOM:EU because I was horny for XCOM. I stopped playing it becuase it wasn't even close.

[Tacobandit]

@HWP

Started playing Impossible Vanilla (Gave up my 13th try on I/I) and I haven't had that much of a problem. I save scummed, but not to the point where I played each mission perfectly. Just to get through the mission from beginning to end. Most of the time I had like 1-2 units after every mission.

The point being that there really was no randomness. I used the exact same sat strategy as in Classic, and I haven't had any serious problems. I do lose more countries than usual, but as long as you don't lose any tac missions, you're good to go. I even aborted a bomb disposal mission.

Even with the SW features, you could probably do it vanilla. Not sure about Ironman.

Classic Ironman is easy. I will agree with you there.

The strat layer is actually easier IMO, simply because you get more stuff from the aliens.

[little_me]

well, read through the thread. A lot of things there, a lot I can agree with.

I'd put main reasons as to why Xcom:eu is bad down to:

tiny strategic maps. so tiny that on larger ufo's you practically land 1m from it.

due to size, randomizing in them isn't great. (different maps, handful of them but thats about it)

the "run to cover as soon as seen" feature? ewww... sure it does resemble what the aliens have in xcom apoc a bit except.. it isn't reactions.. nope. it's "one full move turn"

geoscape is downscaled to.. consoles. if everything wasn't push button to act like two bases, which one.. what to do.. consoles would implode.. probably.

or game makers think so.. so.. all that is out.

contrary to belief of many here. (yes, reasons are personal) i don't see new tactical movement thing as utterly bad. more simple, yes but at same time.. it kind of works. (cover system really doesn't and overwatch=OP)

i'm not totally against troops being specialized towards certain things and limiting inventory space.

yes.. i like having medkits on everyone in older xcoms since.. well.. back then people could die easier and might not be next to another who could heal them.

but well.. besides the specialized perks being a lot of "almost must have this" choices and sniper being bit of an oddity (until they get squadsight and/or damn good ground then they become bit OP if they have high place to stick to) classes seem okay.

and yes... it was awesome game until played through once (each map, ufo and such). second time? way way too similar and linear. if you refuse to research something "critical" you might get "one or two" ufo's or terror missions in a month since plot doesn't advance but past that it's all one line track.

and the ending? hint much about possible xcom:eu2? the things that monologuing head alien says are dead give away.

[djlogue]

I missed the lass thing the head ethereal said cos he started speaking as soon as I killed him and it cut to the FMV scene. Oh and I had a dude under mind control by him, and it didn't include him in the final scene. Stupid

Oh year and did the skyranger leave without anyone on board cos the pilot clearly says " the package is not on board." Maybe he was refering to the "hero" soldier

[Tacobandit]

well, read through the thread. A lot of things there, a lot I can agree with.

I'd put main reasons as to why Xcom:eu is bad down to:

tiny strategic maps. so tiny that on larger ufo's you practically land 1m from it.

due to size, randomizing in them isn't great. (different maps, handful of them but thats about it)

the "run to cover as soon as seen" feature? ewww... sure it does resemble what the aliens have in xcom apoc a bit except.. it isn't reactions.. nope. it's "one full move turn"

geoscape is downscaled to.. consoles. if everything wasn't push button to act like two bases, which one.. what to do.. consoles would implode.. probably.

or game makers think so.. so.. all that is out.

contrary to belief of many here. (yes, reasons are personal) i don't see new tactical movement thing as utterly bad. more simple, yes but at same time.. it kind of works. (cover system really doesn't and overwatch=OP)

i'm not totally against troops being specialized towards certain things and limiting inventory space.

yes.. i like having medkits on everyone in older xcoms since.. well.. back then people could die easier and might not be next to another who could heal them.

but well.. besides the specialized perks being a lot of "almost must have this" choices and sniper being bit of an oddity (until they get squadsight and/or damn good ground then they become bit OP if they have high place to stick to) classes seem okay.

and yes... it was awesome game until played through once (each map, ufo and such). second time? way way too similar and linear. if you refuse to research something "critical" you might get "one or two" ufo's or terror missions in a month since plot doesn't advance but past that it's all one line track.

and the ending? hint much about possible xcom:eu2? the things that monologuing head alien says are dead give away.

Yeah, the game needs more content. Seriously, where are the new map pack DLCs?

[Postmo]

www.polygon.com/2013/1/9/3855318/xcom-enemy-unknown-really-awesome-next-dlc

Not sure if you've seen this yet, but after the response to the pretty terrible Slingshot pack, they've decided to totally scrap the planned second Slingshot style DLC, and instead are working on something big, with new items, aliens and maps being mentioned. Hopefully it'll include some new mechanics too, since Firaxis has admitted that they oversimplified the Geoscape.

[StellarRat]

So the new industry standard is to give you a half-baked game with insufficient content at full price then charge you extra to fix it and give you the "rest" of the game??

Edited February 6, 2013 by StellarRat

[Tacobandit]

So the new industry standard is to give you a half-baked game with insufficient content at full price then charge you extra to fix it and give you the "rest" of the game??

That's UFO Defense and TFTD in a nutshell.

[StellarRat]

That's UFO Defense and TFTD in a nutshell.

Those games were fine considering the available storage and hardware at the time. Remember, the entire game and all the maps had to fit on a floppy disk or two.

[Gorlom]

That's UFO Defense and TFTD in a nutshell.

Did they sell extra content for those games?

[Tacobandit]

Did they sell extra content for those games?

TFTD was the extra content. It was a reskin with improved AI, some fixed bugs, new aliens, new guns, new maps, and a few more features.

Other than that, it was basically UFO Defense Underwater.

[Gorlom]

TFTD was the extra content. It was a reskin with improved AI, some fixed bugs, new aliens, new guns, new maps, and a few more features.

Other than that, it was basically UFO Defense Underwater.

Obviously it wasn't extra content since you didn't need UFO:EU to play TFTD.

I agree that it was basically the first game under water though.

[Postmo]

Expansion packs have been around for a while, I don't think they're anything new.

[StellarRat]

Expansion packs have been around for a while, I don't think they're anything new.

That is true. But, nowadays, there is a much larger tendency for companies to put out poor product then go back and fix it while charging you extra for something that should been done right in the first place.

[djlogue]

when i picked up my demo disc on pc gamer or something, they called it xcom with bubbles