Burst Fire Update

[Quartermaster]

I don't see how it is more complicated to use either, that could be because I am already familiar with it though.

Can you tell me what game uses this mechanic? If I have the time this weekend I will try to play it so that I can get a feel for what it would be like to play with this mechanic. I'm not going to debate with you anymore until I have an opportunity to try it out as that would remedy my suspicions if it works well.

[Jean-Luc]

Haven't really followed the discussion in here so maybe I'm just parroting but one thing I don't like about full-auto is being unable to move after using it which makes it very complicated for units that only have full auto like MGs and vehicles with equivalent weapons.

While it might make sense and even provide a tactical challenge for a heavy weapon like MG to have to commit to its firing sequence, the same reasoning doesn't really work, imo, for assault rifles or vehicle mounted weapons.

Unless I'm missing something I think I'd rather have a limited burst that one can work around. Also, I think full-auto would lead to weird gamey situations where people would move their soldier back and forth (or have them do kneel/stand ups) to expend action points in order to control the length of their burst.

[StellarRat]

After playing last night I'm more convinced than ever that no changes need to be made to burst fire. It's fine the way it is.

[Jean-Luc]

After playing last night I'm more convinced than ever that no changes need to be made to burst fire. It's fine the way it is.

Can you address some of what I've said? Why is it fine? Are you sure a single play session is enough to make that determination?

[StellarRat]

Haven't really followed the discussion in here so maybe I'm just parroting but one thing I don't like about full-auto is being unable to move after using it which makes it very complicated for units that only have full auto like MGs and vehicles with equivalent weapons.

While it might make sense and even provide a tactical challenge for a heavy weapon like MG to have to commit to its firing sequence, the same reasoning doesn't really work, imo, for assault rifles or vehicle mounted weapons.

Unless I'm missing something I think I'd rather have a limited burst that one can work around. Also, I think full-auto would lead to weird gamey situations where people would move their soldier back and forth (or have them do kneel/stand ups) to expend action points in order to control the length of their burst.

Well, you can move after full auto as far as I know...but it uses a lot of AP, so your troop has to be very fast to move and shoot (lots of AP.) As far as why I think it's OK, well, I really haven't found any gameyness or unbalancing caused by auto-fire. I will say that with the new suppression system the M-60 is a fearsome weapon, maybe too good. But that's because IMO suppression is too predictable right now.

[Khall]

Well, you can move after full auto as far as I know...but it uses a lot of AP, so your troop has to be very fast to move and shoot (lots of AP.) As far as why I think it's OK, well, I really haven't found any gameyness or unbalancing caused by auto-fire. I will say that with the new suppression system the M-60 is a fearsome weapon, maybe too good. But that's because IMO suppression is too predictable right now.

I think he's talking about the new, proposed auto-fire where you keep firing until you run out of AP or ammo rather than the current burstfire.

[Jean-Luc]

I think he's talking about the new, proposed auto-fire where you keep firing until you run out of AP or ammo rather than the current burstfire.

Oh, so that hasn't been implemented yet. Beware of misunderstandings. Yes, my post is referring to what Chris said in this thread.

[StellarRat]

Oh, so that hasn't been implemented yet. Beware of misunderstandings. Yes, my post is referring to what Chris said in this thread.

Sorry, I guess I assumed that you knew these were just proposals for changes. Chris' last comment seemed to hint that he might just leave it alone. I'm leaning that way too.

[Jean-Luc]

Having played with the current burst fire implementation for a bit, it's actually more fun than I remembered. Perhaps I won't change it.

Or maybe I will. I just don't know any more.

Oh I see. Missed this. Well, as long as the burst isn't uncontrollable meaning that it doesn't syphon away all remaining action points without the player being able to do anything about it.

[StellarRat]

Oh I see. Missed this. Well, as long as the burst isn't uncontrollable meaning that it doesn't syphon away all remaining action points without the player being able to do anything about it.

I would never support something like that. Were that the case the player would have to intentionally do that and there would need to be an option for a smaller burst that leaves AP's for other stuff.

[Gauddlike]

On that note I should probably post up my other suggestion.

It is my personal favourite of the ideas I had but goes against what Chris wanted a bit I think so I haven't bothered with it so far.

It duplicates the way single shot works so it should be easy to pick up when playing.

Current single shot method:

Select single shot mode.

Right click to cycle through aim modes.

Left click to fire.

Suggested burst method:

Select burst mode.

Right click to cycle through burst modes.

Left click to fire.

In single shot mode the right click cycle goes though shots that cost progressively more AP and higher accuracy to represent taking more time to aim.

In burst mode each click would add another round to the burst for increased AP cost and lower accuracy.

I would start at x2 (if you start at x1 it might as well be single shot mode) and cap bursts at 6 rounds.

That is just to limit the amount of clicking you need to do, there doesn't really need to be a hard cap and modders may appreciate not having a cap.

It would also be nice if soldiers remembered the last mode they used individually from everyone else.

Example modes:

MG:

x2 Rounds = 24 AP, 50% Acc, 30 Supp, Supp radius 3.

x3 Rounds = 31 AP, 45% Acc, 33 Supp, Supp radius 3.

x4 Rounds = 38 AP, 40% Acc, 36 Supp, Supp radius 4.

x5 Rounds = 45 AP, 35% Acc, 39 Supp, Supp radius 4.

AR:

x2 Rounds = 26 AP, 55% Acc, 26 Supp, Supp radius 2.

x3 Rounds = 35 AP, 50% Acc, 30 Supp. Supp radius 2.

Weapons will have different max burst limits as they do currently, for example the MG can have max five round burst while others, like the AR will have max three round bursts.

The xml file will set the AP cost, accuracy, bonus suppression, and possibly number of rounds fired for each step.

On the subject of suppression I would like each extra round fired to give a small bonus to the amount of suppression inflicted but also to increase the area affected.

For example each additional round may add 3 points to the total suppression and increase the area affected by 1 tile.

Pros and cons as I see them are:

Pros:

Duplicates the function of an existing system so should be easy to pick up.

Gives good control of your bursts and your AP.

Gives the player the choice between using more AP for tightly controlled 2 and 3 shot bursts or less AP (overall*) for longer bursts with reduced accuracy.

(*because the initial mode would be higher AP cost than the following modes two 2 round bursts would cost more AP but have better accuracy than a single 4 round burst)

Could allow for easier balancing of burst weapons as more variables can be easily altered.

Cons:

Might mean a lot more clicks to fire a burst (although no more than aiming a single shot).

Requires a bit of coding work to implement (hopefully some of the work is already done on the single shot system).

Needs new burst fire icons.

There are probably many others I have missed, it is hard to pull apart your own suggestions .

Edited August 29, 2012 by Gauddlike

[Gorzahg]

Can't right clicking for burst fire just make it more accurate like it does with single shot as well as making it do more suppression damage.

There I fixed it!

[Gorlom]

Can't right clicking for burst fire just make it more accurate like it does with single shot as well as making it do more suppression damage.

There I fixed it!

... what did you fix? To me it just looks like you added another dimension to the problem?

[Gorzahg]

Oh well I tried.

[Gauddlike]

Bursts in the game are not meant to be accurate, that is what single shots are for.

It also doesn't change the part of the mechanic I dislike which is the binary choice 45 AP fires 5 shots, 44 AP means you can't fire any.

[Jean-Luc]

44 AP means you can't fire any.

You can single shot. Should be enough for two snapshots unless you're stuck with the MG.

[Gauddlike]

I used the MG for all of my examples.

The AP numbers are also from the MG.

That is because that weapon type has no alternative but to burst fire.

Other weapons will still be able to get off a single shot if they are slightly short of a burst, the effect is just more easily noticeable in weapons with large bursts or no single shot alternative.

[StellarRat]

I used the MG for all of my examples.

The AP numbers are also from the MG.

That is because that weapon type has no alternative but to burst fire.

Other weapons will still be able to get off a single shot if they are slightly short of a burst, the effect is just more easily noticeable in weapons with large bursts or no single shot alternative.

Couldn't you put a guy with very high AP and strength on the M-60? Then you could fire and move or fire twice. Considering the high suppression and deadliness of the M-60 I think tend to think of it similar to the rocket launcher, one big boom for your "money" each turn.

[Gauddlike]

The last suggestion is about adding more options for the player when firing.

Limiting the players options is usually a bad thing.

[StellarRat]

Limiting the players options is usually a bad thing.

That's true, but in my opinion we have enough now. If you give a huge amount of options you will have a very complex and sometimes unwieldy interface and a chance for more bugs. It's all about balance.

[Gauddlike]

Quite a lot of the game is still to be implemented, there are lots more options to come.

For example the flamethrower will be a new type of weapon that uses a template for damage.

I don't really see how separate burst modes are any different to aim levels for single shot.

They give you choices when you fire.

The current burst works but is basic and limiting, I would like to see it be more interesting.

[StellarRat]

Quite a lot of the game is still to be implemented, there are lots more options to come.

For example the flamethrower will be a new type of weapon that uses a template for damage.

I don't really see how separate burst modes are any different to aim levels for single shot.

They give you choices when you fire.

The current burst works but is basic and limiting, I would like to see it be more interesting.

It wouldn't bother me that much, but I believe Chris said he is not going to add anymore firing modes or something to that effect. He was talking about changing the burst fire algorithms, not adding more controls.

[Gauddlike]

And why should that stop us putting ideas forward?

Chris might see something he likes and give it a try.

There is a good chance he will glance at the ideas posted and discard them because they aren't what he wants to do.

There is a small chance he will rethink what he plans because of something he sees on this forum.

Another forum member might run with a basic idea you post and come up with something fantastic that neither of you would have otherwise contemplated.

[StellarRat]

And why should that stop us putting ideas forward?

Type away then...I'm just trying make suggestions that have a better chance of being adopted. My thinking is that if Chris doesn't want to do something it's probably not going to happen no matter how much anyone asks. I do wish he'd make a comment here and let us know if this thread is now a waste of time. My fingers are getting tired.

[Khall]

For machine-gun like weapons at least I would like to see an additional burst fire mode. 45AP is a bit much if that is the weapons only fire mode, it's a bit too much "all or nothing", and limits tactical decisions. And like Guaddlike says, once you get to 44AP it is useless if you want to shoot. I think another fire option like a 3 round burst at about 28 AP with reduced suppression would work.

I would like to see more options for burst firing but the machine gun really stands out with it's limited firemodes.