Feedback on "Goldhawk Interactive & Piracy"

[Commissar Pancakes]

Plus you're harming those who buy the games legitimately through slogfest DRM. Sure, EA'll look more like a giant asshole (as if they actually care...) when they slap that extra step you've gotta get through, but then they can legitimize the action due to piracy leading to a loss in profits.

Hell, you're harming the DEVELOPER (i.e. the guys who NEED that cash).

Want an example? Company of Heroes

T'was an awesome game, and Relic deserved every cent they earned (you know...it being best PC game of 2007 and all...). HOWEVER, it was pirated up the wazoo, and ended up becoming a massive loss for the developer.

[Gauddlike]

EA doesn't care what people think as long as they keep getting sales.

They also don't really care about pirates.

EA releases Generic Sports 2012, sells 3 million copies and sees 1.5 million pirate copies used (numbers for example only).

They don't see that as 1.5 million unhappy people who have boycotted their product they see it as 1.5m potential customers.

When Generic Sports 2013 comes out they won't bother to change the formula much, after all it appealed to 4.5m people.

Instead they will work on more restrictive DRM so that they can get as many of that 1.5m as possible to pay instead.

If GS2013 sells 3.5m and has 2m pirates they will be happy because their shiny new DRM got them an extra half a million customers.

For Generic Sports 2014 they still will barely need to alter their tired old formula because it still appeals to 5.5m people.

They will concentrate on developing yet more restrictive DRM to force those other 2m people to pay...

That is how you end up with single player games that have to be connected to a server in order to work.

If less people bought Generic Sports 2015 and their analysis of pirate copy downloads showed few people were bothering with it then they would have to take a look at their formula and maybe read the forums were people complained about their new DRM (where you have to send a DNA sample to their head office to be checked and then visit them to ask permission in person every time you wanted to load the game up).

The only thing they will respond to is lack of interest in their products.

They see piracy as interested potential customers, hence their focus on DRM to try and force them to pay.

[pedrog]

Well if you think EA does not care about piracy look at this exchange of emails between pirate bay and EA:

http://static.thepiratebay.se/ea_response.txt

Piracy mostly hurts companies more than developers or artists. Just look at statistics i send before, a lot of artists believe in piracy and most believe it helps advertise their products, all companies think it is bad to piracy.

But from one point you I think you are right, piracy makes the develop DRM and other kinds of stupid systems, damaging the consumer. This is something I think you have got a point.

In someway there is a sort of similarity between this and patent seeds. For example in India is forbidden for farmers to save some of their own seeds because of patent violations (saving seeds is like making a copy of the seed). In reality this is a way for companies like monsanto to keep their income, because seeds have to be bought by farmers every year. There is a civil disobedience movement who rejects this law and saves seeds even if they can get arrested. Also companies invented what they call a terminator seed, which does not reproduce after the first crop. It reminds of the attempts for copy protection.

Of course you can't compare this to games, i mean this farmers are poor, their are being completelly owned by corporations, and the social implications of this are devastating, including suicides of farmers who can't continue their living.

But what this comes down to, is a think the anti-piracy law is outdated. It does not make any sense in todays world. Almost one hundred per cent of people who can pirate things, I bet even a lot of people who say are against it. Music, movies, whatever it is. I don't know anybody around me who does not pirate things, except for old people who don't access a computer.

This business model is absolete, that is what is taking time for companies to understand because if they have no control, then artists, developers can be on their own and don't need to be under big distribuitions. Just look how many musicians now have their own record label? before it did not exist, musicians had to fight to get a contract for a record label, who then started controling their lifes and incomes. With the age of internet and file sharing this started to change. Systems like Kickstarter are great. However imoral some people think it is, and I think the discussion will not evolve in this part, the future I think will be that all music, games will be copy free.

You just have to look how things happen, the only ones pushing on the contrary are big companies because their still living in the past because they need their absolete business model, and that's the only way they make money.

[Gauddlike]

Well if you think EA does not care about piracy look at this exchange of emails between pirate bay and EA:

By not caring I was referring more to them not being concerned about it as a form of protest.

They see the numbers but don't really care about the reasons behind it.

The big companies still see each pirate copy as a lost potential sale which is undoubtedly wrong.

I also think the law is outdated and desperately needs review.

However my stance has little to do with the law.

I don't think it is right to take a persons work without paying for it, regardless of what the law says.

If a person should choose to give you their work for free then that is great.

Volunteers do that all the time for causes they are passionate about.

There is no reason an artist shouldn't have the same views.

If they ask you for something to compensate them for the time and effort involved but you take it without paying their price then it is wrong.

They might ask for money, they might ask you to make sure their name is attached to the item if you pass it on, that price could be anything at all.

You have two very simple options, accept their terms and enjoy their work or don't accept and don't enjoy their work.

Piracy is the third option where you don't accept their terms but take their work anyway.

[TheUbiquitous]

But why is it wrong? Because it's illegal. If it were legal, none of us would be having this conversation. Also though, that it is wrong is only your moral opinion on the matter. I don't think it is wrong. Just like I don't think Robin Hood was wrong with what he did or Aladdin.

Oy vey ...

An argument could appeal to the Lockean conception of natural rights: Life, liberty, and property. But suppose you aren't sold on that. It could also call down the strict prohibition of God Almighty. But that's derided online more often than not.

This is the only other response which comes to mind: If someone broke into your house, would you really be so zen on the prospect of stealing things?

[Silichna]

I don't promote piracy of EA game in my fliers and stuff, I just promote boycotting all their products in general. I get people to listen to this:

or read this:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/354650/ea-micro-transactions-will-be-in-every-game-eventually/

or this:

And it just generally try to spread awareness of the massive problem that is EA. If they choose to pirate their games after that's their choice.

Also all this talk about what the artists want is completely moot, the artists are paid a wage by the developers to do their job and that's where it ends for them. They don't say whether a demo is made, they have no control over anything that goes on with that game after they've made it. From then on out it's the developers game to do with as they wish and a lot of the time I don't agree with how they see it, so I will try before I buy (if I decide it's worth buying).

I don't see it as stealing and I don't see it as wrong. The artists who invented and created the game are handsomely rewarded in their pay packets. So the only people losing out are the large companies who employ all these people. Hopefully, if we can get enough people to pirate enough games these huge companies will collapse and we can move away from this archaic system we have in place at the moment to one modelled something a lot similar to kickstarter. But on a global scale... People come up with ideas, you pay them if you like the sound of it, then they make it. Cut out the middle man, they're all cunts anyway.

[Silichna]

As for someone in my house that's not even comparable, at all. If someone's illegally inside your house, regardless of whether they've stolen anything or not, they've declared war against the sanctity of your property and can swiftly expect a baseball bat to be connecting with their head if I caught them. If someone were to steal the work I did for my company I wouldn't be too bothered about it to be honest, it's not my problem, it's to do with my companies security, and that's nothing to do with me. If someone were to steal my intellectual property from my home computer, that would be another matter entirely.

I don't care how wrong or right others perceive this to be cause this is MY moral code but I don't see theft from large companies as theft. They make far far far too much money and don't pass it on to the people that deserve it. They hoard it all for themselves and their shareholders. The artists and the creators are the ones that deserve that money, not the developers. So I don't see it as stealing from them, I see it as a social commentary of the impending revolution and they can all go and fuck themselves. Theft from individuals and small companies is wrong most definitely wrong though as they can't afford to be stolen from. A lot of them have got their life savings on the line and I respect that, I respect that a lot.

[TheUbiquitous]

I have no objection to any of your post but the idea that stealing isn't stealing.

M1. Stealing is taking something that isn't yours, i.e. that you didn't pay for.

m1. By pirating a game, you take something that isn't yours, i.e. that you didn't pay for.

C1. Pirating is stealing.

M2. Stealing is wrong.

m2. Pirating is stealing.

C2. Pirating is wrong.

Where's the logical leap, or the ambiguous term?

Edited August 18, 2012 by TheUbiquitous

[Gorlom]

Also all this talk about what the artists want is completely moot, the artists are paid a wage by the developers to do their job and that's where it ends for them. They don't say whether a demo is made, they have no control over anything that goes on with that game after they've made it. From then on out it's the developers game to do with as they wish and a lot of the time

I think that the troll is still talking about music artists, and completely failing to realize that music artists make their money on the concerts rather than the royalties. Which is why Nine Inch Nails doesn't care that their CDs are pirated... its free publicity for the thing you can't pirate: being at their concerts.

Game developers would have a hard time performing live. I can't imagine that being very fun to watch.

[Gauddlike]

And when you steal products from these big companies and they lose their profits you don't think it is the artists and developers who suffer first?

Profits are down, we can either pay our artists less and recruit less new artists or the managers can take a pay cut... yeah artists it is.

We need to make savings so we can take the 1.5 million bonus off the CEO or we can offer less money to the outside contractors who work for us... poor contractors.

Then if you get your way the big company goes bust, great news!

Except now all of these artists, coders, testers etc are having to find new jobs.

They are now forced to conform to your ideas of how they should work.

No stability in working for a company that pays their wages, just lots of free work in the hope that someone picks up something they like and gets funding from somewhere.

[thothkins]

honestly Gauddlike, you're such a downer for bringing reality to people who think stealing from "evil" companies doesn't have any impact in the real world of anyone else.

[Silichna]

Honestly Gorlom, everyone who posts anything defamatory is, in your eyes, a "troll". I don't appreciated being called a troll, I'm not derailing the conversation, we're very much on topic here, and I'm not posting anything just to get a response, I'm expressing my opinion on the matter, which is what I thought we were all doing here. Also in response to your previous post since when do music artists have to go through developers, they go through producers so no I'm not talking about music artists. I'm well aware that the majority of them make their money through touring, my friend is a band manager.

And to the rest of you, yes that is the general idea, the "evil" (you're a fool if you don't think large companies are evil, and I'm not just talking about games companies but companies in general, the larger they get the more evil they have to become to keep their fat cat shareholders happy) games companies pay their staff less, their staff leave them and set up their own games companies. That way if they were only in it for the pay cheque then they're out of the industry but if they really care about it and are passionate about it (like the ones that make the best games are) then they'll set up their own studios and make great games and be keeping the lions share of the profits, like they deserve.

Then if the next thing you say is... "What happens when they become a big evil games company??", you'd hope that they wouldn't but realistically they probably would, then the same thing happens again. It's cyclical. Until a better system comes along or the laws are changed.

I'd also like to see where I said that it didn't have an impact on the wider world or anyone else. If anything I've been saying it definitely does have an impact, an impact for change and a necessary one at that.

Finally to the Ubiquitous, you're missing a crucial step in your arguments, stealing isn't stealing if it's a social commentary trying to invoke a revolution it's a necessary evil sure, but it's not stealing. Much akin to one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

[Gauddlike]

Or the poor artists will be out of the industry because they have families and can't take the risks inherent in a system where you work for free and hope someone will pay you somewhere down the line.

If I followed your argument then I could steal anything and say it was a social commentary about people hoarding their cash, or about big car companies making vehicles that damage the environment.

Just because you feel the potential end justifies your means doesn't mean it is right.

It comes across as a self righteous stance that pirates are some kind of crusaders bringing the light to all of us.

In fact they are in general greedy thieves who refuse to pay for something simply because it is easy to steal.

I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this one.

Generally if someone becomes a freedom fighter or a terrorist there is a reason behind it other than 'I don't like to pay for stuff'.

This is the sort of self aggrandising rubbish that annoys me about piracy.

It is easy to steal so they steal it.

You might find one in a thousand, or even a million, have another reason they feel justifies their actions.

It is still wrong, no matter how they justify it to themselves.

Thread appears to have died anyway, points are made and refuted on both sides, I think it has served its purpose.

[Silichna]

Agreed, if you're going to ignore fundamental points of my argument then boil it down to something which I at no point stated either overtly or otherwise then there is no point in continuing.

[thothkins]

you're a fool if you don't think large companies are evil

for someone you didn't appreciated being called names, you managed to last a whole paragraph there before doing it to others. Well done.

That's not even getting into the fundamental flaws in pretty much all of your arguments that others here have addressed.

[Silichna]

I'm not even going to rise to that.

[Gorlom]

Honestly Gorlom, everyone who posts anything defamatory is, in your eyes, a "troll". I don't appreciated being called a troll, I'm not derailing the conversation, we're very much on topic here, and I'm not posting anything just to get a response, I'm expressing my opinion on the matter, which is what I thought we were all doing here. Also in response to your previous post since when do music artists have to go through developers, they go through producers so no I'm not talking about music artists. I'm well aware that the majority of them make their money through touring, my friend is a band manager.

You missed something in my reply. It was to you, but not about you.

I'm not calling you or diebagger trolls. I respect that you have serious concerns and believes about pirating despite that I don't agree with them. I'm calling pedrog a troll. I don't believe he is serious as his arguments are pretty much like a movie set. Made to look real, but take a closer look from another angle and you notice there is no substance to them.

I have no respect for him at all.

Finally to the Ubiquitous, you're missing a crucial step in your arguments, stealing isn't stealing if it's a social commentary trying to invoke a revolution it's a necessary evil sure, but it's not stealing. Much akin to one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Perhaps so, but in the case of theft where you keep what was stolen the other side is going to have overwhelming difficulties understanding the commentary. It's not going to say what you want it to say.

PS. Is bank robbing not stealing/theft if the robbers claim social commentary about how banks destroy the world? and they still keep all the money they "commented"? (I'm not being sarcastic. I'm a bit fuzzy on the limits of social commentary)

PPS. I'm also a bit fuzzy on your definition of stealing. You aren't using the term as I understand it and I believe that to be a large part in our mutual misunderstanding of each other.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Gorlom

[Gauddlike]

Agreed, if you're going to ignore fundamental points of my argument then boil it down to something which I at no point stated either overtly or otherwise then there is no point in continuing.

I don't see how what I posted missed the fundamental points in your argument.

You argued that people who got fired from 'evil' companies would go and start small companies.

I think this to be a simplistic and fundamentally flawed argument and gave an immediate example of a single type of person this may not apply to.

You said that stealing from a big company is a social commentary, I pointed out that your argument doesn't generalise to other types of product or service.

You then went on to equate stealing games or not stealing games with the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists.

I pointed out people who are fighting and risking death on a daily basis due to perceived human rights abuses, political or racial prejudice etc would laugh in your face if you tried to show solidarity with them because of your pirating activities.

Please specify which part you did not state either overtly or otherwise.

As I have said previously, if I was forced to steal food to survive I would say it was wrong but necessary.

Stealing a game because you want to play it but don't want to pay for it removes the necessary part from the equation.

[raidsoft]

What about if it's necessary for me to be able to make an informed decision about a purchase if there is not enough non-biased information available about the game? Or do you think that consumers making blind purchases based on completely irrelevant trailers and reviews by companies that are getting paid by the people they are reviewing is a good idea?

[Gorlom]

What about if it's necessary for me to be able to make an informed decision about a purchase if there is not enough non-biased information available about the game? Or do you think that consumers making blind purchases based on completely irrelevant trailers and reviews by companies that are getting paid by the people they are reviewing is a good idea?

Aren't there enough "lets play" videos on youtube? Friends or other gamers that aren't professional reviewers that can share their opinion?

[thothkins]

PS. Is bank robbing not stealing/theft if the robbers claim social commentary about how banks destroy the world? and they still keep all the money they "commented"? (I'm not being sarcastic. I'm a bit fuzzy on the limits of social commentary)

It comes down to the end justifies the means for this sort of reasoning. The end being getting things you want without having to create or pay for them yourself.

The justification is that those with a lot of such things are "evil" with smaller interests not being "evil" but probably somewhere along that path, particularly if they become successful or get taken over (sellouts). Obviously any attempt to become particularly successful by creating content to appeal to as many people as possible is also “evil”.

Other common excuses here are “Well, I bought the last version and barely used it,” “They’re too expensive for what you get,” ”They are big enough not to miss the money.” and “after their last rubbish game, they owe me.”

For those small interests without a big success or just starting out, the justification is that without piracy you wouldn’t have come across it anyway, or that the word of mouth from your illegal copy is somehow worth the loss of revenue.

It’s the classic triangle:-

Opportunity – numerous pirate sources.

Motivation – getting something without paying for it.

Rationisation – As above. There’s an excuse for every occasion and size of source.

In other fields, there’s actually a fourth part to this now (cue shape changing diagrams), and that is Cultural. It’s become so widespread to obtain pirated copies, that there’s now the excuse of “well, everyone does it.” That also ties in with the word of mouth excuse and others above. It's seen in some quarters as normal behaviour.

Like I said before, I know that the guys ripping off books with the availability of printing presses, centuries ago, had plenty of similar excuses too.

On a related note, a guy in the UK has just been sentenced for 4 years for running a pirate site. He was getting in £35k per month in ad revenue alone. Other articles have referenced sites that charge for pirated downloads, based on a upload/download balance you keep. No doubt, they are also raking in the cash. I give a little cheer every time I see one of these stories. Robin Hood? Fighting “evil” corporations? You must be joking.

[pedrog]

I'm not calling you or diebagger trolls. I respect that you have serious concerns and believes about pirating despite that I don't agree with them. I'm calling pedrog a troll. I don't believe he is serious as his arguments are pretty much like a movie set. Made to look real, but take a closer look from another angle and you notice there is no substance to them.

I have no respect for him at all.

That was hilarious! At least one thing good made of this argument, you are funny. but if you said you also had to put on some x-ray glasses to see that there was no bones in my argument it would be the cherry on top of the cake.

But you don't respect me at all? How old are you? are you old enough to play games envolving shooting? you don't know me, at best you don't respect piracy, or even my arguments. And why Im not serious? Im Captain Hook who came in the name of pirates to just enter here to fuck this conversation? What did I say to make you so upset? I really don't get it... really!?

You can think im stupid or something, but keep it to yourself, or send me a private message if that makes you happy, but stop entering into personal attacks, it can get not very pleasant if you continue.

But going back to the more serious matter piracy.

I don't think all people that pirate have social concerns, or are warriors against large corporations. Actually most people do pirate, if all this people were conscious about the capitalism and big corporation evilness, then I think the system would have changed already.

But I think that if you are conscious pirate, if you only pirate things from big corporations and support small business and artists with what you can give , I think this is the most conscious thing you can do right now in my opinion.

[raidsoft]

Aren't there enough "lets play" videos on youtube? Friends or other gamers that aren't professional reviewers that can share their opinion?

Depends on the game, sure for a game that's been out a while you will probably be able to find enough info to make a good decision but what about a new release that mostly has reviews from big sites that got the game sent to them early because they have good contact with the developer/publisher? Only option then is either to wait and hope there will be information quickly from a reliable source or pirate it to decide for yourself right away.

You can argue "it's wrong" all you want but for me it makes me better and faster able to decide where I place my money, if the developer doesn't like that I won't get fooled by their marketing then that's too bad for them, they should make better games then instead of spending millions and millions on marketing and fancy trailers trying to get people to make bad purchases.

Note that basically none of this applies to just about any indie developer, they are usually very clear on everything they do and you don't have to second guess them as much.

[Gauddlike]

You are assuming there that it is essential that you buy this game immediately.

Why not wait a week, or a month, if you are unsure if it is a good purchase?

Why do you feel it is essential that you make your decision right now and acquire the game right now?

It is very uncommon that a game will not be available if you wait a while to purchase it.

Not only will there be more reviews around and more chance that someone you know will have already purchased it but it could well be in a sale and be less of a big deal if you find that you disagree with everyone else and don't actually like the game.

As an example I am unsure on the xcom remake that will be released soon (ish).

That doesn't mean I will pirate a copy, it means I will look at reviews and talk to people I know who may have the game before making up my mind.

If I am still unsure I will wait for it to appear on a steam sale or end up in the bargain bin at the shops so that any risk I am taking will be affordable to me.

[Korval]

...

Why not wait a week, or a month, if you are unsure if it is a good purchase?

...

It is very uncommon that a game will not be available if you wait a while to purchase it.

Not only will there be more reviews around and more chance that someone you know will have already purchased it but it could well be in a sale and be less of a big deal if you find that you disagree with everyone else and don't actually like the game.

...

If I am still unsure I will wait for it to appear on a steam sale or end up in the bargain bin at the shops so that any risk I am taking will be affordable to me.

Plus, used copies are available (although I'm unsure where this option is headed what with all the online activation crap coming out), patches are released which squash the game-stopping bugs so many games are released with, and the game is more likely to run better as you inevitably upgrade or replace your system.

I really enjoy installing a game and immediately cranking all the quality options to max. I can only do this with older games, though, since I tend to own systems at least one or two years behind the curve.