Surviving the plasma rifles

[Kimberly]

I start having trouble with the game once regular Scouts start showing up. Not only do they carry aliens which can take a hail of bullets before falling, but they carry plasma rifles, which have this nasty tendency to kill my soldiers in one shot. It's not uncommon for me to have four soldiers unloading on an alien right in front of them, and then the alien doesn't die and kills two of my soldiers during its turn. Then the next turn, the two remaining still can't kill it, and they too get mowed down.

So yes, I'm totally sucking at the game. (On Normal difficulty, no less.) Any way I can stop this?

[Akavit]

One tactic is to keep some men back and have them use sniper rifles. The men in the front should focus on staying alive rather than going for the kill. Forward troopers are for scouting, the ones in the rear do the killing.

[RotGtIE]

In the old X-Com, it was a given that if you got hit by a plasma weapon, you were going to die. I actually think it's kind of odd that Xenonauts in Jackal armor are able to survive single plasma rifle shots as well as they seem to be able to. It's a hell of a lot more forgiving.

[Belmakor]

In the old X-Com, it was a given that if you got hit by a plasma weapon, you were going to die. I actually think it's kind of odd that Xenonauts in Jackal armor are able to survive single plasma rifle shots as well as they seem to be able to. It's a hell of a lot more forgiving.

I agree with this. I went back to try XCOM: EU for the first time in about 10 years last week and boy did by men get fried in the first few months (even including personal armour).

I would be happy to see the Jackal armour become less effective.

[Corporal Hicks]

Welcome to the bughunt!!

[Corporal Hicks]

In the old X-Com, it was a given that if you got hit by a plasma weapon, you were going to die. I actually think it's kind of odd that Xenonauts in Jackal armor are able to survive single plasma rifle shots as well as they seem to be able to. It's a hell of a lot more forgiving.

That's right, in XCOM:EU, even with the best armor you could die with one plasma rifle shot.

[Gauddlike]

If you still die in one shot wearing jackal armour then why bother with it over basic?

Same goes for the heavy/scout armour later in the game.

If heavy armour is not noticeably tougher than basic armour then everyone will end up in the jump capable scout suits.

OK the strength bonus for heavy armour will allow heavier weapons than scout suits as well.

[RotGtIE]

People still paid to get armor in X-Com despite the fact that they could still die in one hit because it improved their odds of survival without any guarantees. Personal Armor was pretty "free" since it didn't require elerium, but Power Suits were preferred even though they required some E to make. The former was still used in case you came across the odd plasma pistol or plasma rifle, since it still had a reasonable chance of protecting you from those. The latter was the only hope you had for resisting heavy plasma, even though it was still no guarantee. I think in those cases, the cost of production was carefully and well balanced with effectiveness.

You don't really have to pay anything for Jackal Armor though, so there's literally no reason not to use it - even the weight issue is overcome in one or two missions due to your soldiers building strength. You could spend the huge amount of money on Wolf Armor, but since Jackal can be counted on to absorb one plasma rifle shot in most cases, and with money so tight, why would you? If your guy takes a hit, you can just pull him back and let someone with full health lead on and be fine. If the coveralls were good enough to absorb a hit from plasma weapons reliably, or if it were almost completely cost-prohibitive to make armor, would anyone have made Personal Armor or Power Suits?

[Gauddlike]

Jackal armour is the standard.

The only reason to not use it is for the troops who cant.

It is heavier, has slightly lower visual range and narrower visual cone.

It does have the better chance of stopping a plasma blast though.

Wolf armour will have a better chance of stopping a heavy plasma rifle than Jackal does I imagine.

As you say, x-com coveralls couldn't really stop plasma, but neither can the basic Xeno overalls.

The Jackal armour is somewhere between coveralls and personal armour while Wolf is somewhere around personal armour.

You need to bear in mind that there are more tiers of armour, and more types, than in the game you are comparing it to.

I don't see why the starting tier of armour shouldn't be slightly effective against the starting enemy weapons.

Of course if the enemy never gets better weapons (other than going from plasma rifles to heavy plasma rifles) then that is a bit different.

It just means that the balancing is going to need to be spot on to make more than one or two sets of armour useful.

Either way, once the balancing is begun then that sort of thing can be tweaked to get them to sit in the slots they are meant to.

[Shima]

I was surprised to see that jackal armour limits your vision when I read that in wolf armour research report. Now it makes sense why your snipers should have just the basic armour. But I miss that information being mentioned elsewhere. Xenopedia, I guess.

[Leonatus]

I agree with Gaudlike here. The balancing of basic Jumpsuit and Jackal Armour was pretty spot on as soldiers with heavy equipment such as machine guns and rocket launchers often can't use the Jackal without losing lots of time units.

When future classes of armour continue to have such varied constraints as limiting visual cone and reach, adding strength, substracting time units or maybe limiting space in the inventory then I could see many useful armour versions in the game.

As opposed to XCom, were there was one best armour, which I never really liked.

Leo

[kirilz]

On topic, I find the best way to survive plasma fire is Privates. Lots of privates, moving forward and drawing the enemy fire. I usually follow behind carefully with sniper rifle and machine gun equipped veterans (as it is, the machine guns are very effective right now). You still need to be careful though, as every Private killed to death is -3 points for the mission. Only in terror missions that does not seem to matter much, as despite how badly I go through the carnage, the terrorized nation is always super grateful.

In general, I think going for a mix of many expendable bodies with 2-3 killing machines is a very viable tactic. Then again I might be influenced a little by my experience playing the Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40k.

[Arturius]

I was surprised to see that jackal armour limits your vision when I read that in wolf armour research report. Now it makes sense why your snipers should have just the basic armour. But I miss that information being mentioned elsewhere. Xenopedia, I guess.

If using scouts forward, snipers on the back tactic it does not matter much that snipers have jackal armour.

As of now it limits soldiers vision, not their accuracy. (am I right here?)

I think balance is quite good now -> plasma fire kills my soldiers in one shot most of the time and I like it that way.

After all human armour (first tiers) is ballistic oriented and not energy/heat oriented protection.

Also, I have to say I pretty much agree with Leonatus when he says:

When future classes of armour continue to have such varied constraints as limiting visual cone and reach, adding strength, substracting time units or maybe limiting space in the inventory then I could see many useful armour versions in the game.

[Gauddlike]

If using scouts forward, snipers on the back tactic it does not matter much that snipers have jackal armour.

As of now it limits soldiers vision, not their accuracy. (am I right here?)

It limits their visual range but I don't think that has any effect on accuracy when shooting outside of that range.

The real downside would be limiting the number of shots you could fire if your strength was too low to handle the armour.

To be fair though snipers will probably not move all that much so heavy armour would not slow them down too much.

They also shouldn't get shot at much using that tactic so do they really need the heavier armour?

At least you have the option

[Gilaras]

If inside a ship, try lobbing grenades inthere. Just make sure to stay a bit back if there's a powersource inside (Provided you don't need it for money or research)

[Gauddlike]

Next version should have the working smoke grenades as well.

Hopefully they won't poison your troops in seconds either.

[Swe_Racoon]

Next version should have the working smoke grenades as well.

Hopefully they won't poison your troops in seconds either.

Reminds me of the sushi from JA2 (what are they called, crep-something? Crêpes?) and their gas spit. Could bring down an unprotected merc before your turn started.

[Max_Caine]

RotGtIe, you have some good points. But in counter to them:

1) Aliens shoot more than once. Especially right now with reaction fire. Jackal armour might stop the first shot but it sure as hell won't stop the second and there won't be time to retreat the poor guy if the shooting alien is kicking off shots.

2) Aliens sometimes work in groups, or spawn in groups. Especially currently in the scout >~< . If I want the $50k alien power core in a corvette or a scout, I can't toss a grenade in there - I have to storm it. Which gives all the aliens in there a chance to shoot the crap outta me. Again, Jackal armour might stop the first shot, but when there's a group of them shooting at me?

3) In terror missions and corvettes onwards the solider class arrives, armed with a heavy plasma gun. Verses this I may as well have my troops in their skivvies for all the good jackal armour does. At least in their skivvies they have more APs to hide behind cover!

Edited May 28, 2012 by Max_Caine
too many damn commas

[Swe_Racoon]

Something that just struck my mind, I've never received reaction fire from an alien looking the other way. Often aliens inside UFOs will be busy admiring the new paint job (courtesy of Xenonaut interceptors), and they never seem to be reacting to my unafraid (or perhaps the other end of that spectrum) troops rushing in. Only the ones actually facing the entrance will shoot at me. This never fails, but only when entering UFOs. Outside UFOs reaction fire usually occurs from beyond my troops' visual range (I'm a sucker for putting Jackal on everyone, that might be the issue).

[Max_Caine]

Then I envy you, Swe_Racoon. I tell redshirt#23 to enter the tightly-packed engine room of a scout, he spots 3 sebillians, they spot him, and the fireworks start.

[Gauddlike]

On the up side its over pretty quick.

[Kimberly]

I've taken some of the suggestions in this thread to heart, and I'm happy to report I'm doing much better now---I've outfitted all of my troops with either shotguns or precision rifles, sending the ones with shotguns out ahead (with Jackal or Wolf armor on) as spotters for the snipers. I'm already knee-deep in corvettes, and I've only taken two casualties! Not counting the ones who managed to survive despite being killed during the mission, anyway.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Kimberly

[Swe_Racoon]

I've taken some of the suggestions in this thread to heart, and I'm happy to report I'm doing much better now---I've outfitted all of my troops with either shotguns or precision rifles, sending the ones with shotguns out ahead (with Jackal or Wolf armor on) as spotters for the snipers. I'm already knee-deep and corvettes, and I've only taken two casualties! Not counting the ones who managed to survive despite being killed during the mission, anyway.

I think that troops who are above -25 Health have a chance of surviving the mission. Makes sense actually, as in real life killing someone instantly is pretty hard (with modern firearms at least). Most often the amount of pain triggers a nervous system chock that renders you unconscious, then you bleed to death. So the way I see it a trooper who is at, say -9, isn't dead but just unconscious and bleeding out. And Wolf armor is the way to go for those meant to go up close and personal, IMO.

@Max_Caine: Odd, I'll have to try this out a few times, but I can wager my left paw that aliens who have their backs turned at me don't get reaction fire. At least when I storm UFOs.

[Gorlom]

@Max_Caine: Odd, I'll have to try this out a few times, but I can wager my left paw that aliens who have their backs turned at me don't get reaction fire. At least when I storm UFOs.

How odd. I'm pretty sure Chris has confirmed that they have 360 degree vision atm as part of their unfinished AI. I'm fairly sure it's been reported in the bugforum too.

[Swe_Racoon]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. But unless my memory has suffered a serious meltdown I'm certain those who don't look at me don't shoot at me. Could be circumstance? Not having enough APs for reaction fire/my troopers being faster than them/somesuch?

All that is missing is that I'm actually remembering it all wrong, and have made a daft mammal out of myself, yet again