Targe

First Impressions

71 posts in this topic

I know this will likely be taken poorly, as I am 'new' to you and forums have an unspoken protocol that new visitors should speak when spoken to and keep their opinions to themselves until they have read everything...

I am one of those, the x-com junkies from the 80's, who played that game more than any other in my life.

What was it about that game, that made it so unique?

It was a number of things, which I will list.

1. Atmosphere. The game had it in spades. It is the only game I have ever turned off the lights on at 2 in the morning to find some greys in a farmer's field in the middle of the night, and it creeped me out. Signs captured this with the midnight cornfield scene.

2. Multiple levels of game. From the strategic world fighter interception interface, to the squad level battlefield, which was made extra fun because it was destructable, this game had so many facets that were unique. Base building, customization, and a super nice geo-globe to rotate around.

3. Backstory. X-Com drew on the wealth of alien knowledge and literature, some amusing, some real, that made it so interesting. From cattle mutilations to alien abduction to moth men, it was in there.

I have been waiting for years for it's rebirth. Terror from the deep was pathetic in comparison (I'm not sure who thinks they can throw hand grenades under water but apparently x-com programmers do...)

And 3 need not even be mentioned, as it was an abomination.

Finally you guys are bringing it back! Fantastic, I am excited. My ultimate dream (as for many others here) was that one would come out that allowed you to play the alien invaders. Go try Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds as an example of this. Brilliant artwork, story, and plot make it believable. Some lines for you to draw inspiration from:

(taking place shortly after the military hunta stages a coup d'tat on Mars, taking over the peaceful government and setting the path to war with Earth...)

[video=youtube;Mfd95Lo_Ni4]

Your comments on an alien version are misguided. It would not be 'too easy', that is what game design is for. You would be forced to carry out numerous complicated missions while under attack from hostile humans and the x-com interception team and fighters. It would, in short, be awesome. But that can wait for a future date and future project. Now on to what you have built so far here.

You seem to be trying to carbon copy x-com enemy unknown. Except for the blaster bombs, which you judge 'unbalanced' even though they come in late in the game and are used against incredible powerful aliens. They were also incredibly fun to use. Simply upping the cost into prohibitive levels would balance the weapon. No, I think you didn't want to bother designing the pathing tool for directing the missile in flight.

Your comments about not including women are valid, given the complexity of the chore you see it as. I am glad you have finally relented to overwhelming pressure from the people paying for this project and are including them.

The strategic map is ok. I understand again the programming limitations you are fighting with. A 3-D engine would have been far better but far costlier.

The interception game appears broken in the demo. It is extremely frustrating to have fighters follow a ufo all day and finally run out of fuel, even when a head on pass interception is not rewarded with an engagement (as it was in the original) this should be fixed.

Alternatively and a much better idea, which is straying into where I'm going next, USE YOUR IMAGINATION, STOP COPYING X-COM!!!

Allow the player to research slight mods to various pieces of equipment in the game, starting with the fighter engines, armour and weapons and fuel range, as well as the chinook. (setting the game in 1970 poses obvious problems solved by the near future setting of x-com which allowed a believable jet powered drop ship able to travel vast distances. A chinook just doesn't cut it...)

Another item you seem to have left out is the fact that the ufo's were doing something. They were not just wandering aimlessly and then generating some random (insert weather disruption, train strafe, ship attack here) they actually LANDED, and performed missions. This needs to be added back in, it all goes into creativity and believability.

The UFO's need to slow down when they get over land, begin their scout mission, start hunting for juicy ripe cattle, whatever. Right now they are flying around doing laps out at sea pretty much wandering aimlessly. It get's boring after an hour, and this is trying to copy a game I would literally stare at FOR HOURS, with the clock in real-time (yes, I am that insane...)

Secondly, you appear to be either carbon-copying x-com, or are at a loss for creative writing. There is a WEALTH of UFO knowledge out there, a lot of it since X-Com came out! Why are you not drawing on it? Do you even know about Whitley Strieber's dedicated site 'Out There' on this? Which contains hundreds of articles for your creative genius? Did you know he wrote The Day After Tomorrow disaster movie, from a conversation he had with an alien/angel/demon/robot...thing he met in a Toronto hotel room? The message from the aliens is that we offed too many scientists in the Holocaust, and now rather than inventing anti-gravity atmosphere vehicles (which is what UFO's are) we are stuck with jets in a gravity well on a planet that is dying and about to experience a rapid onset new ice age. Not to mention some of the aliens coming here like to grow alien-human hybrid thingys, just for the shits and giggles. Or that Close Encounters of the Third Kind is pretty much historical fact. Two of the transferred humans chose to remain on the alien homeworld, btw. All of this stuff is out there, just waiting for you to draw on for inspiration! It's ok! You CAN change the tech tree too! We don't really need to make laser rifles, just 'cause! Add a whole schwack of new stuff!! You can do it! It just takes some imagination! Not a lot of programming really! Just CREATIVE WRITING.

I'd love to help you out with that, but I detect a kind of arrogant tone to your responses, in short, you'll take these fine folks' money but you won't listen too much cause you know what the game is your designing, and that's what your building.

I offer an alternative. Use your imagination and draw on the creative talents of the fine people who have generously given you their hard earned cash. Make this game more than X-Com. And bring it into the modern era of UFOlogy, where so much more is now known. Apparently most of our souls do not die, for example! Neat.

I have downloaded the demo and played it all night. In order to play it a second time I am already forced to hack the fighter stats to make it possible for them to overtake a ufo. This should be just another research arm, as there is a shortage of cool things to research in the beginning anyway. If the player chooses to simply make earth completely impregnable from UFO's but never goes after the main base (please don't tell me it's at Cygdonia again!!!) then so be it! Perhaps make the ending more along the lines of Day After Tomorrow, and we will all die unless we find a way to get to the stars.

Edited by Targe

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Goddamn aliens infesting our forums now! Build more migs! :P

Well welcome to the forum, i guess.

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Is targe haveing a oneman conversation? Who is it even aimed at? Up to the video it seemed like a constructive post... after that it just got odd and I have no idea what he is talking about =S.

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Targe, you do understand what an Alpha is don't you?

The game isn't feature complete yet (hence why you've not really seen the expanded features that Goldhawk are going to bring). Things like Landing have been taken out temporarily due to issues.

It's also not balanced, mostly because not all the assets are finished but also because they're not being added until the game hits Beta, which also explains the current sparseness of weapons/items and their corresponding backstory. Although if you'd bothered to look in the game's xml files you'd get an idea of what's planned to be added.

I also find it quite odd you're complaining it's too close to UFO:EU...it's not only described by Goldhawk as a project aim, but it's quite frankly, what the majority of people want as a base product.

Also, welcome I guess.

As a side note, comments like the OP's are why if I ever get into professional development I'd probably never announce a project until its at the end of the alpha and is near feature complete with the majority of the content in.

Edited by Buzzles

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orums have an unspoken protocol that new visitors should speak when spoken to and keep their opinions to themselves until they have read everything

No those are other forums. We're real friendly. Now you are here by yourself and you told no one else you were visiting. Excellent. I'll just tell Ma that we're having someone else for dinner.

Welcome to the forums! and onto your points...

And 3 need not even be mentioned, as it was an abomination.

I really liked Apocalypse, even if it wasn't quite what it could have been.

Backstory. X-Com drew on the wealth of alien knowledge and literature, some amusing, some real, that made it so interesting. From cattle mutilations to alien abduction to moth men, it was in there.

Completely agree with you. This was a really immersive part of the story. Xenonauts really has it's work cut out to get close to that.

Your comments on an alien version are misguided. It would not be 'too easy'

Can't speak for the Devs, but on one side you have a fleet of 3000 alien craft with sophisticated weaponry and a variety of spaceships. On the other a single base with 1970s weaponry. An organisation whose best weapon is playing really loud disco music at you.

Can't argue that you could put in huge checks and balances in there. The craft don't work too well in the atmosphere so you can't send in the big guns. You can't attack from orbit for whatever reason. You must find precious minerals to unlock your own attack strategies etc. I think it's well beyond the scope for vanilla Xenonauts though.

Except for the blaster bombs, which you judge 'unbalanced' even though they come in late in the game and are used against incredible powerful aliens.

My test is how you would have felt if the aliens had used Blaster Bombs against you as aggressively. Skyranger lands = send in a couple of blaster bombs to likely map areas. Send unit far enough to establish mind control and line of sight. Mind control other puny humans and line them up for harvesting or bomb them again from a distance. That's round one.

Yes, they were fun and gave the game something quirky and unique.

No, I think you didn't want to bother designing the pathing tool for directing the missile in flight.

Devs have been very upfront about Blaster Bombs and Psionics, so I don;t think that's supported.

Your comments about not including women are valid, given the complexity of the chore you see it as. I am glad you have finally relented to overwhelming pressure from the people paying for this project and are including them.

That's actually criticising them for listening to their target audience.

As mentioned a number of the points are due to Alpha Status

Alternatively and a much better idea, which is straying into where I'm going next, USE YOUR IMAGINATION, STOP COPYING X-COM!!!

But when they do this and say drop Blaster Bombs, you're very critical.

Allow the player to research slight mods to various pieces of equipment in the game

There were a few threads of this nature when I was just arriving in these parts, about the research available at the start of the game. Have a search for things like that and let us know what you think.

Another item you seem to have left out is the fact that the ufo's were doing something.

Again, it's partly Alpha, but I link this up also to the back story which I guess we'll see more of in due course.

There is a WEALTH of UFO knowledge out there, a lot of it since X-Com came out! Why are you not drawing on it?

Don't know why they aren't drawing on it. I don't know that they have to. In addition to UFOlogy tropes there are plenty of other sci fi areas to draw from, not to mention coming up with something new instead.

But you can't have a go at someone for a

loss for creative writing
and then expect them to slavishly trot along after Serpo/ Contactees etc.
I'd love to help you out with that, but I detect a kind of arrogant tone to your responses, in short, you'll take these fine folks' money but you won't listen too much cause you know what the game is your designing, and that's what your building.

I think that the forums do show that there is a genuine groundswell of support for the game. Quite a few folks have been around here longer than myself, but I've not picked up any friction between them and the devs.

I'd like to think that they do know the game that they are designing. I'll also go as far as to say that I'm sure there are features they simply won't get round to doing due to resources/ costs etc that may leave some of us slightly disappointed. There are decisions that have to be made after all. That's not to say that other parts of the game won't compensate for it.

If the player chooses to simply make earth completely impregnable from UFO's but never goes after the main base (please don't tell me it's at Cygdonia again!!!) then so be it! Perhaps make the ending more along the lines of Day After Tomorrow, and we will all die unless we find a way to get to the stars.

Time will tell on that front, but I'm not sure about the legality of a Cydonia Assault even though Firaxis don't own either Cydonia or Mars.

So welcome again and I look forward to seeing more of your views on how the story line's development fits in with UFOlogy.

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I kinda want them to copy X-COM in a lot of areas. An improved UI and gameplay tweaks are really all I wanted.

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Secondly, you appear to be either carbon-copying x-com, or are at a loss for creative writing. There is a WEALTH of UFO knowledge out there, a lot of it since X-Com came out! Why are you not drawing on it? Do you even know about Whitley Strieber's dedicated site 'Out There' on this? Which contains hundreds of articles for your creative genius? Did you know he wrote The Day After Tomorrow disaster movie, from a conversation he had with an alien/angel/demon/robot...thing he met in a Toronto hotel room? The message from the aliens is that we offed too many scientists in the Holocaust, and now rather than inventing anti-gravity atmosphere vehicles (which is what UFO's are) we are stuck with jets in a gravity well on a planet that is dying and about to experience a rapid onset new ice age. Not to mention some of the aliens coming here like to grow alien-human hybrid thingys, just for the shits and giggles. Or that Close Encounters of the Third Kind is pretty much historical fact. Two of the transferred humans chose to remain on the alien homeworld, btw. All of this stuff is out there, just waiting for you to draw on for inspiration! It's ok! You CAN change the tech tree too! We don't really need to make laser rifles, just 'cause! Add a whole schwack of new stuff!! You can do it! It just takes some imagination! Not a lot of programming really! Just CREATIVE WRITING.

Have you checked out the background stories on the website? This is going to come down to a matter of taste, but I personally think that they were really well done, and set up a nice background for the whole story. The 70's theme is much better than X-COM (which I love to death) as X-COM's universe was... well it was a little kitsch. Plus there is going to be a novella written by (loses all sci-fi credentials)... some famous author. Don't worry, it seems like there will be plenty of creative writing.

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If the game was being made by a large developer with access to a large pool of cash then a lot more variation in things like tech trees and multiple pathways may have made it in.

Or it could have been turned into an fps.

A small developer (read one person to start with) has to draw a line somewhere or they would still be designing, and trying to pay for, an advanced 3D geoscape.

To be honest your suggestions for background material are not to my taste.

I have read various bits of the information you have mentioned (not all by any means) and was not overly caught up by it.

We haven't seen a lot of the Xenoanuts story as it is planned to be relayed through xenopedia entries as the game progresses and the research tree is not fully in place yet.

Partly due to not being ready but also because Chris has said since pre orders began that he wanted to keep a lot of it back, probably until beta.

It is always interesting to hear some of the newer people put forward their ideas and views about the game though.

I tend to forget that not all that much information is actually available without hunting through the forums for it.

Hopefully you will start to see how much has been done to make this game an homage to X-Com:EU without slavishly copying every feature.

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Sir, I have to challenge you to duel for calling Apocalypse abomination :P *continues reading rest of the thread*

Okay, people already said that several of your points are due to fact we only have alpha demo available which means it has limited functions from what they have planned, but I have to ask something: Ok, if you think devs are copying XCOM too much, WHY the heck are you complaining about them not having UFOs land in demo? Unless you consider that change for worse(though its most likely just alpha thing, I don't know)

Speaking of which, you called Apocalypse abomination(for which I will curse rest of your family lineage ;P), but from what I understand fans hate Apocalypse for changing rather many things(for better in my opinion) so why the heck are you complaining about them trying to keep things samey?

In general I do agree with your "point" but not your arguments, in that game has to stand up as its own game. My first post in this forum was about being frustrated by "Xenonauts! Finally true successor to XCOM!" people.(Funnily enough, we buth also have sameish sort of avatar, except I don't think mine is anything living... Hard to tell, its avatar I got from GOG purchase of UFO: Aftermath.)

UFO: Extraterrestrial would be better example of what you are talking about in first post, most egregious thing about it is that one of aliens (Sybian) looks identical to Snakemen. That game does have its own features(especially before someone modded it to resemble more like XCOM. Which is version I have played because modded version is Gold edition on Steam)

Edited by XenoMask

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(Funnily enough, we buth also have sameish sort of avatar, except I don't think mine is anything living... Hard to tell, its avatar I got from GOG purchase of UFO: Aftermath.)

I've always seen your avatar as a the skeletal form of a bigass nose (those big hollows being nostrils) and very narrow upper+lower jaw.

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I've always seen your avatar as a the skeletal form of a bigass nose (those big hollows being nostrils) and very narrow upper+lower jaw.

Well, UFO: Aftermath have Reticulans(aka that series' version of greys) so I assumed its just stylistic... Something. Yeah, I have no clue what it is supposed to be.

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Let us condsider your points:

1) Re. blaster bombs. I contend they were incredibly unbalanced. In X-Com, all I needed were three guys in flying suits as forward observers. Then, as soon as a bad guy popped his head up, I would blow it off from the other side of the map. Or heck, thanks to the radius of a blaster bomb, I could systematically carpet-bomb whole sections of map if I wasn't too sure where the enemy was. And that's supposed to be balanced? The solution you propose: "make it incredibly expensive" doesn't balance a blaster bomb launcher. A weapon too costly to manufacure in-game will either get passed over for other tools that can do the same job, or if it can do the jjob better than any other weapon, all resources will be channelled into the creation of it.

2) Re. "stop copying X-Com". As an "x-com junkie" "awaiting it's rebirth" this seems to be in direct contradiction to your admonishment to "stop copying X-Com". Exactly what do you want stopped? As an example of this contradiction, you want ufos to land and perform missions. As in X-Com. But you want Goldhawk to not copy X-Com. Is it that you would like Goldhawk to cherry-pick desirable attributes from X-Com? What attributes then, do you not what? Considering your later comments, are you concerned that the play-style is too close to X-Com, or the story and setting is?

3) Re. UFOs on missions/landing. Landing did happen in earlier builds, I have seen the pristene hull of a light scout. No doubt landing will be brought back in again. You say you've hacked the stats of fightercraft. How then did you not see in the xenonauts directory a number of filenames beginning with AM. E.G. AM_BaseAttack or AM_BombingRun. These are all alien missions. The assets are already there: they haven't been implemented yet. This is because the game is still in alpha. That is a reason, by the way. Not an excuse.

4) Re. "creative writing". You seem to be upset that Xenonauts is based around a small multinational organisation, formed in the wake of a potential alien threat, which turns out to be an alien invasion from beyond the stars. You would prefer that Xenonauts be about anything else than a small multinational organisation, formed in the wake of a potential alien threat, which turns out to be an alien invasion from beyoind the stars. Is this the heart of your complaint that Xenonauts is a carbon-copy of X-com? Are you concerned that the weaponry which Xenonauts are armed with is similar? Or that it uses the term "alien alloys" as X-Com did? Please, share your views on this matter, so I can discuss them more with you.

5) Were you the most upset on learning that Xenonauts was from the human perspective, rather than the alien perpective? Is this what turns you off the most?

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I wouldn't mind playing as the aliens for a while sometimes as well.

Hmm thinking about it there is probably a way to do that as a mod...

Reverse the game by having you in charge of the first alien base on the planet.

OK that would be an awful lot of work but most of the stuff you need is either in the game or planned for implementation.

The only thing that would be a problem would be missions.

How would you generate those?

Sorry sort of got sidetracked, can't remember what I was going to post now.

carry on.

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I also think playing as the aliens could be fun. Maybe next game in the series?

It would be interesting to understand the motivation ot the invasion and its development, as days go by.

However, if I were an alien commander, I think I would try to assess a preemptive strike, in order to wipe all resistance in a single hit.

Something like the seven hour war in the HL universe.

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I have read various bits of the information you have mentioned (not all by any means) and was not overly caught up by it.

Tim Good's novels, where Julian Gollop sourced a number of concepts are probably the place to go to see what can be done. But, even then Mr Gollop did a first rate job to tying together disparate themes into a single cohesive storyline. He should get huge credit for that, in addition to everything else X-Com.

It hink the back end of the Sectoid storyline could have been streamlined even further (easy to say when it's all laid out for you and they were racing through the last seconds before release). I may give the EU mods a look to see what can be done there.

The OPs right enough in saying that there are plenty more areas to be mined, or added to the existing EU tree. But, it the devs game and I'll just have to wait and see.. then slate it with practised harrumphing.. and then put my own research tree in instead :)

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This is the issue with playing any game as "the small, scrappy underdogs verses the technological goliaths". I think it was in Mass Effect 1, in the first Contact War, during the occupation of Shanxi when the Turians had space superiority they could pretty much blast whatever they liked, whenever they liked it. Why bother invading when you can nuke one or two cities from orbit? I mean, really, why?

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Well, a frequently used out is that you can't nuke it form orbit. But why you ask... oh go on ask....... fine, I'll tell anyway:-

1) Earth contains precious minerals

2) You require Earth's water

3) you're form Earth's future so you'd be killing your ancestors

4) your from Atlantis and you'd be poisoning your own planet - see also Hollow Earth

5) you covet Earth's women. This is why they are not in the game. They are being kept safe and hidden form aliens

6) you need humans as slaves in your galactic empire

7) your own planet is dying and you need a new home. nuking it would be bad.

8) there are no aliens, and this is all a cunning ruse to unify mankind

9) Earth has some cool shows. It was the 20th century radio signals that brought aliens here in the first place.

10) This is all just a warning. A giant robot will appear with the certain message that we all better behave ourselves.

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I don't want to hijack this thread from it's original purpose, but each of those arguments are refutable, providing you're not interested in mass destruction, but a limited show of force. i.e. nuking few cities. Heck ,you don't need nukes. A few moderatly sized NEOs would do the job. Perhaps we should take this elsewhere?

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I'd love to help you out with that, but I detect a kind of arrogant tone to your responses, in short, you'll take these fine folks' money but you won't listen too much cause you know what the game is your designing, and that's what your building.

I have no idea where you are getting the "arrogant" vibe from. If anything I think Chris has been the most understanding developer that I have ever seen.

Secondly, game developers do not "take" someone else's money. People give developers money in advance as an investment so that the developer has the funds to better develop the game as they see fit. If one does not believe in the developers ability to deliver a good product then that individual has the choice to not pre-order the game. You have played the demo for free at this point and you can make the choice of whether or not to invest in this development studio, but to come here insult them as not being creative is ridiculous. It is the same as buying single stock (except you didn't buy anything) in a company and going to the board meeting and calling the CEO an idiot. I'm sorry for being this rude towards you but I cannot stand when people behave this way towards people that are passionate about their work and striving to create the best product possible.

Edited by Quartermaster
Type

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I'm kind of wondering whether op was a troll or someone who plays himself up to be victim and is now away "Because they are fanboys" .-. I mean, he was talking about how forums aren't kind to newbies, which isn't true as it completely depends on forum :P

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Maybe it's NastyNative back with a new accout? I think he felt pretty unwelcomed for some reason I can't really explain.

Or that Filipino that were so enraged aboutphotoshop tools abducting his country?

Or maybe he is a time traveler that is haveing a discussion across timelines, a discussion that hasn't happened yet and might not happen at all because of him changeing the past.... :rolleyes:

Edit: It becomes far too hard to remain serious when people drop in post one enraged post and then leaves. Feels too much like trollbait. :(

Edited by Gorlom

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Yeaaaaah, its like they got angry at something, made post while angry, then forgot about it afterwards and never come back to check.

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One reason you should never feel bad about derailing a topic.

Aren't kittens cute and fluffy?

I may have accidentally talking my fiancée into opening up a cattery in the back garden.

Must remember to dig out some information on how expensive business start up costs are.

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One reason you should never feel bad about derailing a topic.

Aren't kittens cute and fluffy?

I may have accidentally talking my fiancée into opening up a cattery in the back garden.

Must remember to dig out some information on how expensive business start up costs are.

Only if they are declawed and nudered.

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One reason you should never feel bad about derailing a topic.

Aren't kittens cute and fluffy?

I may have accidentally talking my fiancée into opening up a cattery in the back garden.

Must remember to dig out some information on how expensive business start up costs are.

***Desire to start pointless debate that was not even hinted at in the original post***

Kittens may be fluffier, but puppies are definitely cuter. They have their cute floppy ears and refer to humans as part of their social group. Plus their little puppy eyes are adorable. Cats just don't love people like dogs do.

***Desire satisfied***

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