Preview 0.34.2 XCE - Open discussions

[Charon]

3 hours ago, Charon said:

Are you still open for crazy ideas Solver ?

 

As i was reading throught the notes i noticed that if we could add levels to the alien base sizes it would totally enrich the game and would even come close to custom missions.

 

For example the retaken Countries: We could define a level 4 base at 2000 ATP ( which normally should never be reached in a game ), set the ATP for the spawned base if a country is lost to 2000, make a custom level 4 map for each race and VOÌLA, you got a custom retaking country maps missions. As long as we add the tilesets to the base tilesets folder we could literally make ANY mission possible, outdoor or indoor.

But this doesnt end there. As i see that you can easily set the ATP value for a spawned base we can make custom missions possible with scripts like the one you used for retaking countries. The different missions are nothing but alien bases with different defined ATP values, with gaps like, level 4: 2000 ATP, level 5: 4000, level 6: 6000 ATP, etc ... . Those values will never be something a base can grow into.

You could add this to your UFO mission content for XCE .35. The construction paramter could have an additonal value of "SetATPforBase=2000". As far as i looked over your notes about the custom UFO mission code this should totally be possible and would go well hand in hand with the custom UFO design you proposed as a lot more is possible with your additions. Even stealth is possible as far as i saw that.

Apart from that adding more base levels means more possibilities and thread levels for longer and more enriched gameplay for every modder to choose and set for.

22 minutes ago, Solver said:

I'd need to look at how insistent the game is on only having 3 possible base sizes. But your point is very interesting, it could be a powerful, if clumsy, way of opening up more levels.

Also, with discussion like that, let's please handle that in other threads, I would prefer to keep this one focused on description of existing modding functionality and questions about it.

Roger.

[Solver]

So to follow up, it does look somewhat feasible, although I cannot easily support an arbitrary amount of base sizes. But I could throw in a few more, so that after Large we have ExtraSize1...ExtraSize3, for instance. Letting you do some more interesting country stuff.

It would need a safeguard for ticker values though, there's no way to say that a particular ticker value will not be reached. Yeah, 2000 shouldn't be reached, but maybe someone modded terror missions, lost a couple, and gets over 2000 ATP.

[drages]

X-Division goes to 1800.. we plan to finish it at 2000, because after that, enemy will be so powerful.. but it's up to crazyness of a player still. We can make phases longer too if we see people can't get all the req things in a phase.

Why don't you do modable so modder can give that ticker numbers?.. Will they bases can update more then 3? so will they go 4,5,6 in time? It would be nice for late game.. for everything.. 

[Solver]

Yes, I can certainly make the ticker numbers moddable, I am talking about the overall amount of different base sizes. There are currently three. I can make it, for instance, six, with moddable ticker thresholds, but letting you have any number of sizes would be annoying, and is probably not necessary.

So I think that updating the game with 3 more sizes that could optionally be used is an interesting idea, worth investigating closer for a subsequent release.

[drages]

This is beyond me but Charon became crazy.. he is writing a very long reply to you here.. he wanted me to inform you :).. Incominnnnggg...

[Charon]

13 minutes ago, Solver said:

So to follow up, it does look somewhat feasible, although I cannot easily support an arbitrary amount of base sizes

This would be the optimal solution but i understand that this could cause problems.

13 minutes ago, Solver said:

But I could throw in a few more, so that after Large we have ExtraSize1...ExtraSize3, for instance. Letting you do some more interesting country stuff.

If we talk about a total of 10 base sizes i guess this is the best number to go with, 4 main alien bases, 1 endgame alien base, 2-3 country mission retake mission bases and 2-3 special mission "bases".

13 minutes ago, Solver said:

It would need a safeguard for ticker values though, there's no way to say that a particular ticker value will not be reached. Yeah, 2000 shouldn't be reached, but maybe someone modded terror missions, lost a couple, and gets over 2000 ATP.

Well i can see why you see a problem there, but there is really none as far as i see the code.

  <mediumAlienBaseTickerLimit value="45"  comment="Alien bases are medium sized above this ticker value."  />
  <largeAlienBaseTickerLimit  value="90" comment="Alien bases are large sized above this ticker value."  />

This will determine the "limits". If you dont want the next stage to be reached you can simply put it to 10 000 ATP. Or even 100 000 ATP. The stage limits should be customisable.

Next thing could look like

 <Extra1AlienBaseTickerLimit value="2000" comment="Alien bases are large sized above this ticker value." />

 

So that there is no misunderstanding about this part, a feasable solution could look like:

  <mediumAlienBaseTickerLimit value="45"  comment="Alien bases are medium sized above this ticker value."  />
  <largeAlienBaseTickerLimit  value="90" comment="Alien bases are large sized above this ticker value."  />
  <Extra1AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="150" comment="alien base 4"  />
  <Extra2AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="4000" comment="Country retake Size 1"  />
  <Extra3AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="4200" comment="Country Retake Size 2"  />
  <Extra4AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="8000" comment="Special mission 1"  />
  <Extra5AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="12000" comment="Special mission 2"  />
  <Extra6AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="16000" comment="Special mission 3"  />
  <Extra7AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="20000" comment="Special mission 4"  />

 

If you could put it like that than there would be a lot of potential.

 

The only thing which hurt this a bit is

  <supplyRunTicker                    value="5"     comment="A successful alien supply run mission to a base generates this many ticker points." /> and
  <alienBaseTickerPerMinute           value="0"     comment="An alien base generates this many ticker points per minute after being built, even if undetected." />

But as a X-Division developer i can guarantee that I can work around that even if you dont make them individual customisable for every base size. Making them customisable for every base size would be an extra here, although pretty useful.

[Charon]

I havent even started talking about the possibilites !

 

Since every base size has its own range of maps we could create

1. A single, customised map ONLY for that type of mission where everything will be hand placed. The Ufocontent file can especially set up for this as well. Randomised units, custom map ... EVERYTHING is in reach.
2. Giving a mission a range of maps it can draw from making it semi-random. Maybe the same map with different breaching points. A lot is left to RNG
3. Making a true random map selection for this type of mission

oh and theres still this line of code

  <maxMissionAlienBaseModifier value = "1" comment = "Add this much to maxMissionCount for every alien base on the map" />

 

The possibilites would be ENDLESS.

 

Giving the people the ability for unlimited amount of "bases" would open this system up as wide as possible but like i said i understand if that is a concern.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Charon

[Solver]

maxMissionAlienBaseModifier 

That one just determines how many UFOs spawn per wave though, it's not that interesting.

[Charon]

Just now, Solver said:

maxMissionAlienBaseModifier 

That one just determines how many UFOs spawn per wave though, it's not that interesting.

Well I´ve already build a whole system on this line of code only, as the current setup in X-Division is, as you can see, no relation damage per base but increase in UFOs only and faster ticker speed if a supplyship comes through. Together with the fact that rare almost non beatable UFOs can spawn, which statistically means more of them, makes the earth a pretty lively place where your top priority doesnt have to be to take out bases. Although in the long run they put a lot of pressure on the player, making going for bases or other missions a real geoscape decision.

[Solver]

So thinking more about this, how would you create bases that have the right ticker size for you? Aside from the hypothetical ability to change construction missions in 0.35, is there anything you could currently use?

[Charon]

1 minute ago, Solver said:

So thinking more about this, how would you create bases that have the right ticker size for you? Aside from the hypothetical ability to change construction missions in 0.35, is there anything you could currently use?

Well the first thing which comes to my mind is your retaken country scripts. Whatever you did in those scripts should be appliceable to everything else, you just change the trigger.

This could be researches which trigger a spawn in designed country, just like a lost country would, with the same ticker settings like in the retake system ( Either "-1" or set ATP ).

I think thats really the only player controlled instance and presents the best option.

[Solver]

Well that is the problem, it still depends on me specifying the triggers. You can of course set a 2000-ticker base to appear when losing a country, but there aren't currently other triggers available to you. This really being the major issue.

[Charon]

So a research line for a random spawn could look like TriggerMission(MissionName,Ticker Value) where the ATP value ofcourse sets the kind of mission, which have to be set in the gameconfig before that. For the game its just another base spawn, nothing else, but for the player it looks like something is REALLY happening.

[drages]

Can't we use a trigger about the country points. The mission will spam when the point is for example 200 at that country.

Let it count the ufo missions.. a special mission pop up after aliens done 50 research mission ufos..

Let it make another thing after 10 alien base spawned..

Let it spawn after 5 terror mission..

Dunno, some ideas..

[Solver]

You mean in researches.xml? That is hardly random, it very much ties to the player's actions.

I like this brainstorming, if something interesting can be made with triggers, it could open up a fair amount of possibilities. Including something better than fake alien bases.

[Solver]

The other issue being is that "reusing" alien bases like that is going to mess up scripting somewhat again, the game uses some special scripts for alien bases. It expects power generators, darkens the map, and puts you in "deployment mode" at the start.

[drages]

Just now, Solver said:

You mean in researches.xml? That is hardly random, it very much ties to the player's actions.

I like this brainstorming, if something interesting can be made with triggers, it could open up a fair amount of possibilities. Including something better than fake alien bases.

A mission trigger with a research is not bad idea. 

"We discovered a signal with this devise which points a hidden alien ***** (base, factory, meeting... whatever you want), we can now go and join to party"..

It's same as end game but you do it at midgame. You can even create end game clones, you can even teleport them to their planet with a research chain needed to real end game. You can meet with boss preators girl and your soldier can fall in love with her.. then she wants to speak with her father but you get a distress call from another research or after a certain trigger value, and you see that princess ship is under attack!!! You go there and save the girl, boss preator changed his mind but at that time, he killed by his evil brother.. After that situation a new research came up to search for his position. When you go to him, you captures the girl and want you hand over the world.. you give the world and love wins..

So its better then twilight and default Xenonauts ending at least..

Rather then base script, why dont u use the "ufo crush spawn when you dont do anything at beginning of the game script" ?

[Solver]

1 minute ago, drages said:

You can meet with boss preators girl and your soldier can fall in love with her.. then she wants to speak with her father but you get a distress call from another research or after a certain trigger value, and you see that princess ship is under attack!!! You go there and save the girl, boss preator changed his mind but at that time, he killed by his evil brother

Yep, now I think I've heard enough  

[Charon]

6 minutes ago, Solver said:

Well that is the problem, it still depends on me specifying the triggers. You can of course set a 2000-ticker base to appear when losing a country, but there aren't currently other triggers available to you. This really being the major issue.

If i understand you correctly you are either asking for the modable lines or you are saying every script to spawn a X ATP base has to be made by you in teh first place.

 

1. Making the script to spawn a X ATP base should be modable by the player. The modable lines for modders would be

• the aforementioned researches code line  TriggerMission(MissionName,Ticker Value) -1 for an global ATP related ATP
• your custom UFO mission design. Look for SetTickerBase="2000"

 

	<AlienMission name="Construction"
	configFile="AM_Construction.xml"
	firstPhase="Approach"
	>
		<Phase name="Approach"
		phaseTimeMin="4"
		phaseTimeMax="12"
		chooseConstructionLocation="1"
		nextPhase="ReachingBuildSite"
		/>
		<Phase name="ReachingBuildSite"
		goToConstructionLocation="1"
		nextPhase="Building"
		/>
		<Phase name="Building"
		phaseTimeMin="8"
		phaseTimeMax="16"
		buildAlienBase="1"
               SetTickerBase="2000"
		nextPhase="Leaving"
		/>
		<Phase name="Leaving"
		phaseTimeMin="1"
		phaseTimeMax="3"
		nextPhase="Finished"
		/>
		<Phase name="Finished"
		finalPhase="1"
		/>
	</AlienMission>

SetTickerBase="" is just an example of how this could work.

 

2. Right now, this is all teh game does. No complications here.

The modder specifies the alien base ranges here:

  <mediumAlienBaseTickerLimit value="45"  comment="Alien bases are medium sized above this ticker value."  />
  <largeAlienBaseTickerLimit  value="90" comment="Alien bases are large sized above this ticker value."  />
  <Extra1AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="150" comment="alien base 4"  />
  <Extra2AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="4000" comment="Country retake Size 1"  />
  <Extra3AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="4200" comment="Country Retake Size 2"  />
  <Extra4AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="8000" comment="Special mission 1"  />
  <Extra5AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="12000" comment="Special mission 2"  />
  <Extra6AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="16000" comment="Special mission 3"  />
  <Extra7AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="20000" comment="Special mission 4"  />

Optimally he should be able to unlimitely add Base limits. As an alternative the NUMBER of maximum bases can be set by you, in this case a modder only have 10 limits to work with, which he can obviously set to his own standarts.

 

3. For every added base size, which the game takes from the gameconfig with the name

<BaseNameAlienBaseTickerLimit ... >,

it looks  for the maps in maps/alienbase/BaseMaps/

the files will be called

alienbase.BaseName.andron
alienbase.BaseName.sebillian
alienbase.BaseName.caesan

there he will find the map pool for this size of "base"

 

4. Adding the ufocontent.

After that the game looks for the appropriate ufocontent file in ufocontents/... which is named

alienbase.BaseName.andron.xml
alienbase.BaseName.sebillian.xml
alienbase.BaseName.caesan.xml

 

 

And its done. Custom missions are available.

 

Everything revolves around the fact that you can add

  <Extra7AlienBaseTickerLimit  value="20000" comment="Special mission 4"  />

Ticker limits to bases. The BaseName in each case will act as an identifier for the other files the game draws.

[Charon]

26 minutes ago, Solver said:

The other issue being is that "reusing" alien bases like that is going to mess up scripting somewhat again, the game uses some special scripts for alien bases. It expects power generators, darkens the map, and puts you in "deployment mode" at the start.

Thats no problem, so they are all night missions. The game has not enough night missions anyway.
If the game needs a power generator i can put one down at the map, np.
Deployment mod is fine too.

These limits are not really bothering, they are just the salt in the soup.

23 minutes ago, Solver said:

Yep, now I think I've heard enough  

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, read through my whole plan.

 

32 minutes ago, Solver said:

You mean in researches.xml? That is hardly random, it very much ties to the player's actions.

I had the same thing in mind what drages suggested.

 

34 minutes ago, drages said:

Can't we use a trigger about the country points. The mission will spam when the point is for example 200 at that country.

Let it count the ufo missions.. a special mission pop up after aliens done 50 research mission ufos..

Let it make another thing after 10 alien base spawned..

Let it spawn after 5 terror mission..

Dunno, some ideas..

Thats looks interesting but is definitely another pair of shoe. My idea revolves around special UFO missions and research triggers.

 

32 minutes ago, Solver said:

I like this brainstorming, if something interesting can be made with triggers, it could open up a fair amount of possibilities. Including something better than fake alien bases.

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Charon

[Solver]

Okay, Charon, but what are your ideas to spawn those missions if we assume a situation without the alien_missions.xml I wrote about? One such idea is just tying them to research, I understand. Anything else?

[drages]

1 minute ago, Solver said:

Okay, Charon, but what are your ideas to spawn those missions if we assume a situation without the alien_missions.xml I wrote about? One such idea is just tying them to research, I understand. Anything else?

If i may to join, 

Mission counter. 50 base supply mission, 5 terror mission... Base counter, after 5 base we got something different. 

I don't know that game can do that but: Total Dead from a race. 500 Sebillian deaths..

Total or per zone point counter. A mission before you lose the zone, to regain its safe.

UFO counter: after 50 scout..

Xenonauts base counter.. after Xenos got 5 base...

Research is still the best "side quest" mission spawner. "We got a signal but we are not sure we can keep it.. you need to be hurry, Commander", a mission spammed with 2 day limit..

To be honest fraxis used this kind of things at Xcom very much.. even as DLC..

 

 

[Charon]

19 minutes ago, Solver said:

Okay, Charon, but what are your ideas to spawn those missions if we assume a situation without the alien_missions.xml I wrote about? One such idea is just tying them to research, I understand. Anything else?

I dont really have ideas about that since it doesnt seem important to me. Tieing it to research is the most important point. If i would start to fantasize the possibilities would b endless, but drages has scoutet a whole lot ideas of those.

• Time, every 30 days theres a 40%,40%,20% chance to spawn a mission, 3 in total
• Casuality rate. At defined stages theres spawns a special mission like 1000, 10 000, 20 000
• ATP. Every 100 ATP a new mission. Since bases stay forever they will have to be done soone or later or the player succumbs to the amount of "bases" out there
• Country relation ticker points, at 100 CTP for instance. There could be something like a mission to help countries. I dont know if the bonus for GC code counts for "bases" as well but i dont think so.

This would be the most important ones for me. Other options seem pretty minor to me, like tieing them to the number of exisiting bases, but i might be wrong.

[drages]

Mission spawning is about adding RPG elements to game. It's not impossible and fraxis Xcom tried and somehow handled it.

There is something important too.. what will your objectives be? Destroying an object? Killing an alien? Stunning an alien? If every mission will end with killing anything, it could only serve to main purpose.. more alien killing..How many aliens should die for saving earth!!!.. 

Another important thing is, if we got those missions we need to have a modable "brifing" in front of that missions. 

For spawn, i say research and  Country relation ticker is enough for spawning special mission. We can much more then Xenonauts mission line like capture officer, capture leader, blabla.. we can create real leader missions like capturing generals of all races.. 

[Charon]

23 minutes ago, drages said:

Mission spawning is about adding RPG elements to game. It's not impossible and fraxis Xcom tried and somehow handled it.

There is something important too.. what will your objectives be? Destroying an object? Killing an alien? Stunning an alien? If every mission will end with killing anything, it could only serve to main purpose.. more alien killing..How many aliens should die for saving earth!!!.. 

Another important thing is, if we got those missions we need to have a modable "brifing" in front of that missions. 

These are just convinient additions, nothing obligatory. Candy, if you will. The mission debriefing could be in the name or in a Xpedia entry. This is all manageable if we can even spawn special missions.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Charon