CSC_1988 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) In light of the fact that friendly military and law enforcement personnel will be involved in ground battles, I was wondering if human enemies could possibly be engaged in battles when fighting on the territory of nations who have signed pacts with the aliens? I think this would be an interesting addition that would vary the dynamic of the battlescape a bit. It would also mean there would be slightly more in the way of consequences for losing funding nations. I'm new here and I apologize if this potential feature has already been discussed--couldn't find it on the forums. I also wanted to say that I greatly appreciate the developers for creating something that embodies the spirit of the original X-Com, in light of the populistic dreck currently being produced by 2K. Good ideas will produce better products than big budgets, every time! Edited November 9, 2011 by CSC_1988 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathra Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Its possible, but only for rare missions. One example given is that we might fight human enemies in 'Liberation' missions, which are the missions that bring back a nation into the funding bloc. The problem is, mechanically, human enemies aren't that interesting. If they've got alien weapons, then they're just aliens with the race advantages (Sebillian reg, Andron terminator-ness, etc). If they don't use alien weapons, then they're just kind of boring, and would have trouble getting through late-game armour as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSC_1988 Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Well, there are two ways of rolling with it that I could see working: -They could simply be mooks to supplement alien forces and marginally increase difficulty and provide opportunities for experience to train Xenonauts. Human enemies aren't anything fancy, but after fighting the same alien race dozens of times, novelty value dissolves to an extent anyways. Their inclusion would serve to add some distinction and variety between battles on alien-controlled nations and funding council ones. They could also scale depending on the time elapsed in the game (acquire armour, etc) and possibly allow the Xenonauts to bypass research threads if they have tech that the Xenonauts are unable to research at that point. -Humans allied to the aliens could have received some kind of augmentations that grant them abilities and could be researched by the Xenonauts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathra Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 None of the alien races 'obselete' though, and they get better troops and equipment as the game progresses (so later on you could end up fighting armoured Caesans). There's also a risk of confusion since NPC humans are more common (not just in terror missions), some of which are also soldiers. Could have the Psi aliens mind-control them though... Cybernetics have already been brought up and discarded, doesn't really fit with the game theme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSC_1988 Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 I don't recall disparaging the alien races. I just like the thought of pact-signing nations lending their armies to the aliens, as what I loved about the original X-Com was that there were consequences for failure. My main argument for inclusion would be that this would increase resistance in "lost" nations in a way that's feasible both in terms of logic and gameplay. Fair enough on the cybernetic implants; I wasn't sold on them anyways. I'm just brainstorming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSC_1988 Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Also, are you saying that "liberation" missions in which "lost" nations can be reclaimed are confirmed? I kind of liked how definitive it was to lose them in X-Com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathra Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 They've been part of the game plan for a while now. How exactly they work is a bit up in the air, but tentatively it'd be something like running multiple interceptions and ship recoveries in that region, as well as destroying the alien base in that area. Then getting a semi-scripted special mission to finalise the liberation. Not easy, but its possible, which is what's important. On a related note, it was also previously brought up to have traitor nation aircraft attacking when you fly over. That's not going to be in, due to it invariably being annoying or tedious (due to their inferior craft). Overall, fighting human enemies was mentioned to by Chris to be unlikely (except in maybe rare missions). The game's more about fighting aliens, and its best to focus on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSC_1988 Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Ah, I appreciate the info. Like I said, I'm new to the dialogue and was wondering if the developers had taken a stance on this kind of thing yet. I'd be more on board with the reclamation missions if they're *very* challenging, so I like the approach you've suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Don't forget Sathra that they do get the T90 tanks! (maybe?) Also make sure the mission start screen states whether any friendly forces encountered were friendly or no would be necessary, and if you don't read it? Your fault Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathra Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Yeah, I remember. Its a big maybe though, due to how...odd they would be. At the very least they wouldn't be able to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 You could reverse the normal missions. Rather than friendly troops holding an area they would be hostile. Xenonauts troops would be attacking to liberate the nation from alien influence but the local troops wouldn't know that. They would just see an attack. If they are holding an area then you would probably need to avoid killing them and work around that area. Killing them would be a relations hit to the nation, even if you succeed in the mission. Kind of a yay you saved us, did you have to kill a large section of our national guard though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Fighting humans hasn't been confirmed, but the idea mooted was a sort of "Black Ops" mission where you go in and take out the leaders of a nation that had signed with the aliens. Depending on how dark the mission is intended to be, you could either have them as controlled by the aliens or not. I think the missions would be interesting in the sense that you'd get to feel like aliens for a bit - the big powerful guys with amazing guns. I guess you could make the missions interesting by having a timer on it (get the kills, or maybe captures) and get back to the dropship in X turns. It's not part of the core game though so we'll have to see. I'm also not fully convinced it fits with the spririt of the game, much as I like the idea myself. I get the impression it might jar some players a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickeyC Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Fighting humans hasn't been confirmed, but the idea mooted was a sort of "Black Ops" mission where you go in and take out the leaders of a nation that had signed with the aliens. Depending on how dark the mission is intended to be, you could either have them as controlled by the aliens or not. I think the missions would be interesting in the sense that you'd get to feel like aliens for a bit - the big powerful guys with amazing guns. I guess you could make the missions interesting by having a timer on it (get the kills, or maybe captures) and get back to the dropship in X turns. It's not part of the core game though so we'll have to see. I'm also not fully convinced it fits with the spririt of the game, much as I like the idea myself. I get the impression it might jar some players a bit. I actually really like the sound of this. As you say Chris it would likely jar some people and may not be an exact fit to the feel of the game, but covert ops are a big part of the secret organisation thing, and certainly with in the time setting, so it does fit to a degree. I kind of hope this does make it in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathra Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 As long as they are rare. There's a dozen other games where you can kill humans in turn-based (or turn-based-like) combat. I want to kill aliens with increasingly fanciful weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I don't really like it. Slaughtering practically defenceless humans isn't really what a mission should be focused on. At least if they are hostile npc's defending set areas you have the option to (and maybe be rewarded for) avoiding killing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If any of the aliens have mind-controlling abilities, then it would make sense in a mission to face mind-controlled human forces. I think it might be fitting to face not only human military or police, but also mind-controlled civilians armed with pipes, baseball & cricket bats, and small arms. Like Guaddlike said, there would be a catch-22 situation. Do you want to kill the mind-controlled humans and lower your score, or do you want to risk your troops' lives and just stun them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoywolf Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I think the idea to recover a nation is great, but id prefer if it was not combat related. If you can spend some money to re-convince a nation to start funding you again, or giving them some tech or anything else as payment would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I think the idea to recover a nation is great, but id prefer if it was not combat related. If you can spend some money to re-convince a nation to start funding you again, or giving them some tech or anything else as payment would be nice. Ha ha that wouldn't work. Essentially you're saying, "here have this money, now I want you to give me much more money!" =p Also, killing helpless enemies makes you feel strong. I missed it in force unleashed, I would have loved to have walked into a room of basic storm troopers, all of them firing blasters at me as I mercilessly cut them down. But no, they had to get 'different' storm trooper types... I'm not saying all the time, but occasionally having a fun, easy (ish) mission might make a nice change to the progressively difficult alien missions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I can't see myself bothering with the easy (and morally dubious) human killing missions when I have more valuable missions to do. If the missions are easy AND valuable that seems to be bad balancing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamkyon Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) I'm not saying all the time, but occasionally having a fun, easy (ish) mission might make a nice change to the progressively difficult alien missions I concur. That sort of thing would spice up the game by adding variety and a sense of pacing. Edited November 16, 2011 by iamkyon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokik Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Would be cool to have something similar to the Cult of Sirius from Apocalypse. Some kind of a crazy religious paramilitary force who view the aliens as humanity's saviours and use propaganda and terrorism to help them. Perhaps the aliens have even given them technology to make them more effective. Of course they could be wiped out in a mission at some point, and a secondary objective could be to take the leader(s) alive for interrogation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoywolf Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Ha ha that wouldn't work. Essentially you're saying, "here have this money, now I want you to give me much more money!" =pAlso, killing helpless enemies makes you feel strong. I missed it in force unleashed, I would have loved to have walked into a room of basic storm troopers, all of them firing blasters at me as I mercilessly cut them down. But no, they had to get 'different' storm trooper types... I'm not saying all the time, but occasionally having a fun, easy (ish) mission might make a nice change to the progressively difficult alien missions lol yeah that is true, but there has to be another cost other than the resource they give you =\ maybe resource spent in time or something like that to get them to like you again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamkyon Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Would be cool to have something similar to the Cult of Sirius from Apocalypse. Some kind of a crazy religious paramilitary force who view the aliens as humanity's saviours and use propaganda and terrorism to help them. Perhaps the aliens have even given them technology to make them more effective. Of course they could be wiped out in a mission at some point, and a secondary objective could be to take the leader(s) alive for interrogation. Cabals were included in the early design documents (and later discussed on the old forums), but Chris eventually decided against them, citing concerns about such treachery rendering the game too bleak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathra Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 What kyon said. The thread where cults were first brought up was where fighting humans was first suggested as well. This thread is interesting though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Attacking a fortified compound holding the turncoat nation leaders guarded by both alien and human troops would be a lot of fun imo. The humans could use either alien or earth-tech weapons, doesn't matter much to me, they're just there to provide fluff and atmosphere (the scary feeling that there are actually humans fighting on the aliens' side) and a bit of an additional challenge together with the alien guards. They could use heavier weapons (MGs, snipers...) that can at least put a dent in more advanced Xenonaut armour. They could even have Hunter vehicles on their side. Bonus points if human troops are coloured army green. The Hunters as well. If the leaders are being mind controlled there could be a secondary objective to liberate them within X turns before the aliens decide their position is indefensible and kill the "hostages". If successful, you're rewarded with extra nation relations and maybe even a one time $$$ reward. Edited November 10, 2011 by Jean-Luc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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