Modular UFOs - Discussion and Suggestions

[kabill]

EDIT: Anyone who wants to do some testing can download a prototype here

(Currently contains only Light Scout, Scout and Landing Ship maps.)

So, in another thread Chris indicated that he'd be willing to support the production of assets to make UFOs entirely modular and tile-based (allowing full destruction) if he was presented with a strong enough proposal. For reference, see this:

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/10958-New-UFOs-%28Looking-for-Artists%29?p=121259#post121259

I thought I'd start a thread for people to discuss this and to present possible UFO layouts.

There's a couple of rules that should (probably) be followed for designing the new maps:

1) The UFOs should fit on the same sized submaps as are currently used, to avoid having to re-position the UFOs on the actual game maps.

2) The UFOs should have the same number of resource-yielding props as is currently the case to maintain current game balance.

Something that needs to be confirmed is where the modular UFO walls would be between-tile (like most walls in the game) or would occupy an entire tile in their own right (like the Nissan Hut curved walls in the Desert and Arctic tilesets). While I think the latter would look better, it will create issues where the interior walls need to mesh with the exterior walls because there will be a gap. This would therefore require new interior wall edge tiles which fit with the shape of the exterior walls.

For the time being, if people have contributions to make in terms of actual designs, I suggest posting screenshots of the interiors so that people can comment on them. If there's support for a particular design, the submaps can then be distributed for people to try out in prototype form.

EDIT: Something to consider as well is whether there'd be any advantage to expropriating the hull-disappearing feature which is currently used to ensure maximum visibility inside the UFOs. Don't know how feasible that would be, but worth thinking about maybe?

Edited June 28, 2014 by kabill

[kabill]

To get the ball rolling, here's a possible design for the Light Scout:

Without exterior walls:

With exterior walls:

I've divided the ship into two sections to break up the fighting and avoid being able to kill everything from the entrance. The doorway between the first and second room is placed where it is to make it as awkward as possible for the player to attack that room: there's no way to attack it other than moving a solider through the doorway so you can't just spam grenades/LMG bursts from the doorway to suppress everything without even a chance of reaction fire.

However, if the doorway placement offends, it would be possible to flatten the wall and have it forward facing. Alternatively, if the interior crews are too small to make the design work well, the middle partition could be removed entirely (and maybe something added to the middle to make it a little less bare).

EDIT: It's obvious from the pictures, but for clarity: I'm assuming dividing walls rather than full-tile walls for the time being.

Edited June 25, 2014 by kabill

[kabill]

And here's a Scout:

Without exterior walls (1):

Without exterior walls (2):

With exterior walls:

The Scout here is designed similarly to the Scout (indeed, the latter kind of looks like a larger version of the former, which I take as a feature). Again, it's divided into two to break up the fighting, and the transition between the two rooms is designed to force entry into the room as above. And again, the middle partition could be redesigned or removed entirely if it is disliked.

The props are positioned such that defenders should have good LoF to the doorways and there's no interceding props that can block the aliens shots. In the first image, I've got some railings around the command chairs, which I included to add a bit more cover and also to make the central space feel less empty. It does slightly obstruct LoF from a position further back behind the console/datacore, however, so I'm not sure whether it's a good thing or not (hence the second image).

[Xitax]

As a design ideal, I don't care much for artificial difficulty. I prefer to find challenge in things designed with a functional ideal. Think to yourself, how would aliens design this ship to be as useful as possible? Would they even consider the possibility of being assaulted on board?

Edited June 25, 2014 by Xitax

[skaianDestiny]

I second the "form over function". It's more immersive to have UFOs that were designed to look like they were meant for their task then to have random rooms meant for "difficulty".

[Skitso]

Scout looks fine (but could be one tile longer towards NW), but there's something in the light scout design that rubs me in the wrong direction... maybe its the lack of symmetry, maybe it's the curved mid wall and the strange door. What if you made the whole layout 1 tile narrower and put the entrance to SW wall of the lower section?

If we get support from the code department (Solver) we could also make two versions with SE and SW orientation to add a bit more variation. This would mean fixing all the maps to support this, but I'd be willing to do it.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Skitso

[BuzuBuzu]

As a design ideal, I don't care much for artificial difficulty. I prefer to find challenge in things designed with a functional ideal. Think to yourself, how would aliens design this ship to be as useful as possible? Would they even consider the possibility of being assaulted on board?

Maybe the aliens - after receiving reports that all their initial scouts were shot down and turned into shooting galleries - decided to do some remodelling and make UFO defense a higher priority. Though again that would be like planning on getting shot down by earthlings.

I personally don't mind any new designs as long as you don't pick one or two but put all of them in the mix so there's some variety in the waves of scouts you shoot down before you start shooting down wave upon wave of corvettes.

[Pinetree]

Those pictures remind me of the Evil Alien Shed...

[Max_Caine]

kabill, the one thing I will say is that looking at your designs, you're still thinking in terms of vanilla Xeno UFOs. I believe Chris wants original designs based more the squared-off EU1994 design aesthetic (and come to think of it, the EU2012 designs after the scout which are rectangles). As my singaporean friend would say, you need to wake up your idea. Try challenging yourself with a design which is wholly rectangles and squares.

[Skitso]

Yeah, forgot to say that too - gotta agree with Max there: try to think more out of the box. Like I said, light scout could have entrance on the SW wall for example.

[Max_Caine]

Perhaps I should give some examples. Try a Scout design which has a rectangluar core, running the length of the ship, with 4 square rooms 2 to the left and 2 to the right of the rectangle. Or a set of five linked squares. Or two L-shapes with a square core.

[kabill]

Thanks for comments. Some responses:

Issue of "form over function": I think I'm going to need some persuading here. One of the things I learned from making the designs in Fire in the Hole is that things like prop placement really matter. It's very easy to put props in places where they're basically useless for anything but looking pretty and it's therefore very easy to end up with a UFO which is more or less a shooting gallery with no cover for the aliens to use. This, indeed, is one of the key problems with FitH.

The other issue is UFO difficulty. I've never seen anyone comment on how difficult UFOs are to assault, but I've seen plenty of people complain that they're too easy. Trying to reduce the effectiveness of very basic strategies like "suppressing everything with a single flashbang" therefore seem like reasonable objectives to me.

Of course, I'm not suggesting turning the UFOs into killer death-traps with only the function of making everything as difficulty as possible. But personally, I'd rather start from the position of trying to make the UFOs tactically challenging than the other way around.

(It's worth noting that one of the key strengths of the modular system is 100% dynamic entry. But if the UFOs aren't especially challenging using a "forward entry" strategy, there's no need to use this feature. (Again, this is something I've encountered with FitH.) Hence, I'm not sure there's a lot of point completely overhauling the UFOs in the game if the strengths of the new system aren't played to.)

General Shape and Layout of UFOs: Vanilla influence? Mea culpa. Honestly, that was a deliberate design decision when I was making those maps because I didn't want them to be too radically different from the current UFOs. That's not to say that I'm not persuaded by the idea of making them more different, I just needed a starting place.

On this matter, does anyone have any thoughts as to how to make it look good? My major issue with the modular system is that box-shaped UFOs are likely to look rubbish. I've tried to combat this in the designs I did by shaping the outside (I've been assuming that if/when this was done for real, there would be diagonal walls to make it look better, mind). I'm wondering whether other people thing that this is necessary, and whether the style I've used is an effective one.

UFO Facing and Doors: I like the idea of not having all the doors SE facing, and also like the idea of having variable UFO facing. It's plausible that there's code support for different facings already. At the very least, this is true for the player drop-ships and its apparent from the UFO hull images/spectres that there was originally a plan for multiple facings since many of them have a compass-facing specified in their filenames.

A low tech version would be to enlarge the submaps so that they're all square-shaped, leave a margin around the edge of the submap (of say, three tiles) to ensure access, and then just include multiple submaps with the facing shifted. It wouldn't be as good, but it would work more or less.

The issue with all of this, though, is the placement of submaps on the actual maps. It's unclear to me whether - if this took off - the modular UFO system would simply be a mod or if Chris would want to replace the UFOs in the base game as well. If the latter, re-positioning the UFOs isn't a problem because the modular UFOs would be standard. But as a mod, it would be problematic because it would be incompatible with any custom map that wasn't designed with the modular UFOs in mind.

Hence, for example, I really like the idea of having a doorway in the side of the Light Scout as Skitso suggests. However, without knowing how plausible moving the UFO submaps is going to be, I'm reluctant to do it because it's going to make any Light Scout placed against the SW edge a pain to access.

On Being Involved: Last thing! First, thanks for the comments thus far, they're really useful. Second, when I started this thread it was with the intention of making it a hub so that anyone could post their designs. It occurred to me at the time of writing that this isn't especially helpful for most people, though, because most people aren't familiar with the submap editor which limits direct involvement. However, I realised last night when making the designs above that the vast majority of the time spent making the maps isn't actually placing things on the maps but actually coming up with the designs themselves.

With this in mind, I want to suggest that if you have an idea for a design but don't know how to use the submap editor and/or find it intimidating, then instead produce a sketch or provide a description and I (or someone else versed in submapping-fu) can turn it into a actual in-game design.

EDIT: If anyone can pass on comments as to how the v1.07 AI is working in UFOs, that would be really useful too.

EDIT 2: @Max: If it wasn't obvious from the above, yes I'll have a look at your suggestion.

Edited June 26, 2014 by kabill

[Mikhail Ragulin]

Old-style UFO's are a wonderful idea. All design work should be based off an empty biscuit tin.

[Ragnarok]

I dont think kabill's Ufos look bad at all.

Personally, i wish it would be possible to have more than the single front entrance, but considering the small size of the Ufo, it would be impractical (gameplay and Immersion) to add more than 1.

[kabill]

I dont think kabill's Ufos look bad at all.

Personally, i wish it would be possible to have more than the single front entrance, but considering the small size of the Ufo, it would be impractical (gameplay and Immersion) to add more than 1.

Something I was thinking regarding Skitso's suggestion of a side rather than front entrance for the Light Scout was to have an entrance on either side. It makes it less defensible, for sure (although I'm envisaging cover points being towards the front and rear of the UFO, leaving the middle where the entrances are fairly open). But it works around the problem of the UFO placement on the map, as even if one of the entrances is mostly blocked by a map edge you can always use the other one.

[Solver]

Kabill, you know I am of course a fan of your work. So a few points:

On "form over function", I think it can largely be solved by the use of some props, perhaps new ones. The original game's UFOs, as well as alien bases in Xenonauts, are well done because every room looks like it has a purpose. This is not the case with some UFOs, but it can be made so.

On difficulty though, I strongly prefer keeping the Ligh Scout as a single, somewhat open room. As the first UFO that a player will encounter, I think it is important that Light Scouts be easier compared with the rest of the game. This was also done so in the original game, where the first Scouts you encountered were just a rectangular room with one prop in the middle. For other UFOs, they can and probably should be more difficult.

However, care should probably be taken to prevent them from being too predictable. What I found in Fire in the Hole was, paradoxically, that the mod is even more predictable than vanilla. Something about the layout of those UFOs led to aliens always occupying the same exact tiles. That is not at all a good thing.

[Solver]

Kabill, you know I am of course a fan of your work. So a few points:

On "form over function", I think it can largely be solved by the use of some props, perhaps new ones. The original game's UFOs, as well as alien bases in Xenonauts, are well done because every room looks like it has a purpose. This is not the case with some UFOs, but it can be made so.

On difficulty though, I strongly prefer keeping the Ligh Scout as a single, somewhat open room. As the first UFO that a player will encounter, I think it is important that Light Scouts be easier compared with the rest of the game. This was also done so in the original game, where the first Scouts you encountered were just a rectangular room with one prop in the middle. For other UFOs, they can and probably should be more difficult.

However, care should probably be taken to prevent them from being too predictable. What I found in Fire in the Hole was, paradoxically, that the mod is even more predictable than vanilla. Something about the layout of those UFOs led to aliens always occupying the same exact tiles. That is not at all a good thing.

[kabill]

On "form over function", I think it can largely be solved by the use of some props, perhaps new ones. The original game's UFOs, as well as alien bases in Xenonauts, are well done because every room looks like it has a purpose. This is not the case with some UFOs, but it can be made so.

Yes, indeed. I've no issue with doing this at all. Indeed, I've tried to do that in the examples above by dividing the UFOs into a bridge and engine room.

Something I was originally going to do with Fire in the Hole but in the end didn't (mostly) was to borrow the props from the alien base tileset as the UFO props, while they're fine, are mostly just computers, command seats and weapons modules. I think it will be possible to get a bit more flavour by borrowing some of the alien base props as well as there's some pretty nice things in there and you don't get to see them much.

On difficulty though, I strongly prefer keeping the Ligh Scout as a single, somewhat open room. As the first UFO that a player will encounter, I think it is important that Light Scouts be easier compared with the rest of the game. This was also done so in the original game, where the first Scouts you encountered were just a rectangular room with one prop in the middle. For other UFOs, they can and probably should be more difficult.

I've had a lot of trouble with this. I always found Light Scouts far too easy, so when I designed FitH I added the partitions. When I started doing the redesign, I went back to open plan and hated it still. Hence the partitions. The trouble is, though, that the partitions don't work very well either.

I think this might be solved by having side-entrances rather than a front entrance, though. Basically, the key problem for me is having full LoS into the UFO from outside. But coming in through the side means you need to enter the UFO to see and shoot things. I think that should be sufficient to make it a challenge but shouldn't be overwhelming (it'd be easy enough to enter with smoke or high reflex modifier weapons).

However, care should probably be taken to prevent them from being too predictable. What I found in Fire in the Hole was, paradoxically, that the mod is even more predictable than vanilla. Something about the layout of those UFOs led to aliens always occupying the same exact tiles. That is not at all a good thing.

I think this may have been due to the heavy partitioning. Since there wasn't a lot of cover in individual rooms (due to their small size) there was only a small number of places for aliens to actually sit. Certainly, when I was doing the redesigns I got a mixture in the scout with some places almost always being occupied but others apparently encouraging aliens to move around more. So I'm hoping that more open rooms with a wider variety of cover spaces might help with this issue.

[KevinHann]

If we are talking new props, I would suggest such that would look as if they were regular ship props the aliens moved around in a hurry to build barricades. Currently it all seems a bit orderly for a crashed alien craft and perhaps that is what's prompting comments in the line of "form over function". It would massively improve immersion!

This is a question for specialists but how difficult is it to introduce entirely new props for this particular purpose?

Edited June 26, 2014 by KevinHann

[kabill]

That's not a bad idea, at least for UFOs which have moveable components (i.e. cargo containers).

On a related note, I wonder whether it would be including enhanced crash site features (i.e. internal and external crash damage, smoke etc.)? I'd almost certainly make this as an optional mod anyway, but can anyone think of any reasons why it would be a bad idea to have it as standard?

[KevinHann]

The only thing I can think of is it could potentially cause performance issues on weaker machines (such as mine )

Of course additional effects could also bother some people due to personal preference but I don't think that should be a major factor as you just can't keep everyone happy!

[Mikhail Ragulin]

This is also an ideal chance to re-introduce the cow dissection table, and maybe "anal-probe corner".

[Phenakist]

I I am interested in helping with art design and assets.

[kabill]

This is also an ideal chance to re-introduce the cow dissection table, and maybe "anal-probe corner".

There's assets already in game...

I I am interested in helping with art design and assets.

Not my place to accept this offer. However, personally I'm really struggling with imaging the aesthetic of the UFOs. They either look like boxes, or they look like lumpy messes not at all dissimilar to XCOM: Apocalypse's UFOs (and neither of these things are good). So, something that would help me immensely (and maybe other people too?) is some kind of basic wall tileset that could be used just to get a sense of how everything would fit together.

I'm wondering, then, how much effort it would be to produce the following:

1) A set of basic hull tiles (4 total)

2) A set of exterior doors (4 total)

3) A set of corner tiles (8 total: 4 inward facing and 4 outward facing)

4) (Maybe) a set of diagonal hull tiles (I'm not sure if diagonals are a good idea or not)

I'm assuming that this would actually involve making only half as many images from scratch, since ne/nw and se/sw will likely mirror each other. So that would be 8 images, 12 including diagonals as well. Is that a lot of work, or not? If it is, it's probably not worthwhile as there's no assurance these would be used in the final version. But if not, it might be useful.

[Phenakist]

I'm wondering, then, how much effort it would be to produce the following:

1) A set of basic hull tiles (4 total)

2) A set of exterior doors (4 total)

3) A set of corner tiles (8 total: 4 inward facing and 4 outward facing)

4) (Maybe) a set of diagonal hull tiles (I'm not sure if diagonals are a good idea or not)

I would say within a week, you could have the basic tiles all ready to go, with varients upon them to give a little more unique flavour. I can give it a shot, however a couple things I need to know are :-

- What angle does the camera need to be in a 3d modelling program to get the same angle as xenonauts.

- How big is a single tile in xenonauts, in pixels