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KOKON
11-24-2011, 07:42
I haven't seen this on forum so i want to remind you how it was in xcom apoc.

During the turnbased gameplay your enemy or some groups of your enemys were moving simultaneously during their turn. Thx to this duration of enemy turn was very much reduced.

anotherdevil
11-24-2011, 07:55
I think most of it is calculated this way anyway, with only those who might be spotted by you appearing during the hidden movement turn no?

Sathra
11-24-2011, 10:56
I'm confused, do you mean simultaneous turns or simultaneous movement of units during their turn? It sounds like you're talking about simultaneous movement which would be useful for turn length (and players can do it) but can make it harder to keep track of what's happening.

KOKON
11-24-2011, 12:52
I mean aliens or some of them move simultaniously during their turn. Another idea that you thrown is partially exist with time left fot shooting but i'm not sure about it's widening

Sathra
11-24-2011, 15:24
Widening?

It sounds like you're talking about reaction fire now. That's already in.

KOKON
11-24-2011, 15:33
Widening?

It sounds like you're talking about reaction fire now. That's already in.
Yeah so i mean only two aliens firing at your soldier in the same time and things like that.

If you have two aliens on your screen, shooting at you, then they can do it not one by one but together without perseption problems. In apoc all aliens were moving in the same time. Or at least units of their sqads were moving in the same time if my memmory is cheating

Joeneren
11-24-2011, 16:23
ehm sounds a bit like realtime to me.... or? This IS a turnbased game you know :)

anotherdevil
11-24-2011, 20:43
I believe the idea is to speed up the enemies turn by doing hidden actions simultaneously. doing other actions simultaneously seems a bit odd though, and I don't think that should be in

Sathra
11-25-2011, 01:21
Yes, that's my concern with it. It was mostly okay in Apoc due to the low lethality per-shot of the weapons (and the generally poor accuracy of the aliens), but it would be problematic in Xenonauts.

Silent_Thunder
11-25-2011, 16:33
Aww I was hoping this guy was recmomending a simultanious turn based mode like in Combat Mission or Frozen Synapse. Now THAT would be interesting, although they'd need a new engine for that I'd wager.

Moonshine Fox
11-30-2011, 09:33
Yeah, I think that would be difficult, but I'm a huge fan of the Frozen Synapse way of doing things. The UFO:AfterXXXX games tried to do this, but they turned out too sluggish for my taste. FS is a brilliant system for turn based combat that adds a whole another dimension to planning.

Sathra
11-30-2011, 10:28
Not to mention it might be straying a bit too far from the X-com formula.

NeutralGround
11-30-2011, 13:28
although they'd need a new engine for that I'd wager.

Yeah, surely that would require a massive overhaul of pathfinding and umpteen other sets of calculating that Im not experienced enough to speak of.

That and real-time with a pause button - is still real-time.

If the OP is saying that turn-by-turn should still exist but:


If you have two aliens on your screen, shooting at you, then they can do it not one by one but together

then for those 'one-off' instances when operative A has alien X, alien Y and alien Z shooting at him inside the scope of the same screen, it might add an action dynamic - Alien X, Y and Z fire and their plasma bolts, they go flying but dont hit the mark, then during your turn agent A,B and C fire back at the same time creating a turn-based 'fire-fight' effect.

However, consider the instance that operative A is being targeted by alien X and Y. Now alien X is say 5 sqaures away but alien Y is 20 squares away - off screen. How is that going to be displayed smoothly? It would certainly present:


perseption problems

I agree with Sathra. This would be moving too far away from the original XCOM TBS formula.

Real time with pause, like Frozen Synapse and UFO:Afterlight are great and they enhances the element of action, which can be cool, but my fondest memory of the older UFO series - and Ive mentioned it before in some other post - is that slow, aprehensive 'hidden movement' phase.
There is something seriously eery, creepy and sometimes frightening about waiting through the 'HIDDEN MOVEMENT' phase and seeing aliens X,Y and Z quickly zip out of and back into the fog, taking pot shots at your squad and then eventually that Chrysallid that jumps out and turns half your squad into slime-leaking alien incubators.

Moonshine Fox
12-02-2011, 19:19
...then eventually that Chrysallid that jumps out and turns half your squad into slime-leaking alien incubators.Thank you. Now I have nightmares. :S

lennard
10-13-2012, 20:55
I really want simultaneous turn based mode aka real-time combat like apocolypse had. I HATE traditional turn based with avengence. To me it make the game complete unrealistic and slow. Bear in mind turn basing comes from board games and only really was on video games because programmers/players didn't know any better and the hardware couldn't support it. Neither is an issue now, so surely it's not that hard to at least include it as an option.

Not having it as an option is enough to put me off a game. It is the primary reason (with many other reasons) why I'm not going to bother with xcom: enemy unknown

Gorlom
10-14-2012, 01:17
I really want simultaneous turn based mode aka real-time combat like apocolypse had. I HATE traditional turn based with avengence. To me it make the game complete unrealistic and slow. Bear in mind turn basing comes from board games and only really was on video games because programmers/players didn't know any better and the hardware couldn't support it. Neither is an issue now, so surely it's not that hard to at least include it as an option.

Not having it as an option is enough to put me off a game. It is the primary reason (with many other reasons) why I'm not going to bother with xcom: enemy unknown
I disagree. I strongly disagree that is the only reason for turn based games existing nowadays. This game probably doesn't target you as part of it's demographics, much like roguelikes doesn't target people that likes checkpoints, multiple lives, continues or respawns?

I think this game would be better off not trying to cater to everyones likes. Including real time would mean starting over from the beginning, so it's not likely that it will particularly cater to yours.

IceVamp
10-14-2012, 01:27
Yes. One could almost say that one of the game's selling points is that it's turn based combat.
Not a selling point for everyone of course. But definitely for us old dogs that have fond memories of EU.

lennard
10-15-2012, 21:47
Yes. One could almost say that one of the game's selling points is that it's turn based combat.
Not a selling point for everyone of course. But definitely for us old dogs that have fond memories of EU.

I'm not saying remove turn based. I'm saying allow real-time as an option, just as it was in apocolypse. For starters it makes the game a lot faster - you don't spend five minutes trying to kill one alien because you need to make every single shot, rather than just giving you guys some instructions and letting them do it.

It would not require a total rebuild - just and extra aspect to the ground combat that is not already there. It would then appeal to a lot more people than just the old dogs who grew up play turn based board games (which have their place btw, but also take forever)

thothkins
10-15-2012, 22:34
Considering the huge amount of time/effort/ resource to get this far in turn based, I really can't see this one getting very far. There have been other threads that have discussed variations of turn based to real time, such as FS and UFO:Aftermath above. While I'm fairly partial to those, and while Xenonauts can seem a bit slower, I can't complain at all about how they've chosen to go on this one, considering what's available to them.

Gorlom
10-15-2012, 23:39
It would not require a total rebuild - just and extra aspect to the ground combat that is not already there.
You think this is something quick and easy to just slap on? I'm assuming that something like that has to be built in from the start. That it will be very difficult to add something like that in since it's not supported anywhere in the code. It also requires different AI than turnbased. and unless I'm mistaken apocalypse was pretty poorly balanced if you compared real time to turnbased. It'd be a nightmare to try and make the game flow equally in turnbased and real time. IT might have been possible if Goldhawk was a triple A studio, but for a team of less than 10 on their first game together?

I admit to not having any programming experience. Do you have any?


what exactly has attracted you to Xenonauts in the first place btw?

Chris
10-16-2012, 13:54
Chess isn't less of an experience for being turn-based now technology allows us to have real-time multiplayer games. I don't see any particular game system as becoming obsolete just because there are alternatives to it.

But yeah, adding real-time combat would be a mammoth undertaking - adding something that fundamental is not you can do easily and it's certainly beyond our capabilities if we want to release the game in the near future, I'm afraid.

thothkins
10-16-2012, 20:08
Chess isn't less of an experience for being turn-based

Ah, you've clearly not played SimulChess where multiple stratagems occur in realtime. Turn based chess indeed...shakes head on way back to the medication room...

StellarRat
10-16-2012, 20:41
I'm assuming that something like that has to be built in from the start. I admit to not having any programming experience. Do you have any?I do and you're right Gorlom. Large parts of the game would have to be redone. You really have to have this in mind from the beginning to make it work right. Also, real time games don't lend themselves well to scope that Xenonauts covers. There are lot of possible "collisions" for the player's brain. For example: How would you run air combat while a ground mission was running?? What about research/engineering changes? What happens if two recovery teams land around the same time? Would you be happy with the AI running those? Anyway, you get the idea.

Then there is the fact that in an environment that is so unforgiving of losses the slightest screw-up can ruin your whole game. When you put time pressure in you can't really optimize your moves. It's OK when you can instantly "grow" new troops, but when you have to play MANY missions to get your troops up to high levels I just don't see how this could work unless an absolutely brilliant AI could take some of the pressure off the player or the Xenonauts were greatly superior to the aliens. Remember you are supplying the brain power for EACH soldier in your squad because they can't think on their own. That's not possible in something that isn't turn based unless you can think as fast as computer and as well as a human.

Gorlom
10-16-2012, 21:09
Also, real time games don't lend themselves well to scope that Xenonauts covers. There are lot of possible "collisions" for the player's brain. For example: How would you run air combat while a ground mission was running?? What about research/engineering changes? What happens if two recovery teams land around the same time? Would you be happy with the AI running those? Anyway, you get the idea.

Then there is the fact that in an environment that is so unforgiving of losses the slightest screw-up can ruin your whole game. When you put time pressure in you can't really optimize your moves. It's OK when you can instantly "grow" new troops, but when you have to play MANY missions to get your troops up to high levels I just don't see how this could work unless an absolutely brilliant AI could take some of the pressure off the player or the Xenonauts were greatly superior to the aliens. Remember you are supplying the brain power for EACH soldier in your squad because they can't think on their own. That's not possible in something that isn't turn based unless you can think as fast as computer and as well as a human.


o.0 You do remember there was a real time mode in X-com apocalypse right? I think that was along the line of what lennard was asking for. :S

StellarRat
10-16-2012, 21:28
o.0 You do remember there was a real time mode in X-com apocalypse right? I think that was along the line of what lennard was asking for. :SNow that you mention it, yes. I never used it. I hated it. Anyway, my last paragraph still applies in that case. ;) You can use the rest in case someone thinks making Xenonauts into an RTS would be a good idea. :mad:

meowmers
10-21-2012, 07:05
I've noticed that i can move my troops pretty much as fast i can click on them. i with thats what the OP meant. that would make the Hidden Movement a lot shorter.

Also JA2 1.13 implements(optionally) "lazy civilians" to reduce their turn length. i dont think this is the best idea for this game but something could be done.