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Hellstormer
05-05-2012, 03:29
So there is one glaring thing that happens in all games related to the Xcom universe from the original, here to xenonauts, and from everything I've read also will be in the new Firaxis game. This same factor breaks my initial Immersion in the game. Or if you prefer the more technical terminology - something that breaks my suspension of disbelief.

The item I am referring makes 100% sense from a gameplay point of view. It would DESTROY balance to not be the way it is now. With that being said however here's my issue.

When the game starts your troops SUCK.

There I said it. They suck. We ARE after all talking about the best Earth has to offer. Apparently we are $%#*ed in every Xcom game. The best of the best soldiers in the WORLD are awful at the start of the game. You can have two people stand next to each other and face the same direction - for example away from the main rear entrance to the chinook. These two genuises will somehow, despite years of specialized training and weapons experience, manage to say shoot EACH OTHER.

If you throw grenades (thus far in any game) they clip into nearby objects. Like a box in front of you lower than your waist. How this happens just kills me with laughter every time something like that happens. I mean really? That's the BEST we can come up with? It makes me wish for a comedy movie to come out based on a spoof of this stuff (you know like a bad movie that becomes a classic because it's funny bad... like Tremors).

I mean from a gameplay perspective sure, you want your soldiers to get more powerful as they fight aliens, they get more confidence fighting the strangers from other planets. I mean I get that totally. Like I said to do it any other way would break the gameplay balance early on to a degree if your guys were fairly competent (high APs, accuracy etc). That being said I think it's an aspect to these types of games that will always make me scratch my head the first few encounters of every new game I start.

thothkins
05-05-2012, 07:38
Actually, I find that the initial guys in Xenonauts stand up a little better than the ones in EU.

- Armour perhaps
- seemingly more versatile weaponry. At least, I seem to make full use of the range in this game
- the soldiers seem to be able to hit a fair amount of the time

From a gameplay perspective, although they are the best they are dealing with a complete unknown and that's bound to affect their ability to perform actions and their judgement. No briefing will really prepare them for coming up agianst a threat that's well ...alien.

I flicked through a book about Navy Seals a week or so back. Top blokes, but they got absolutely pasted in a few encounters and managed to get lost on the way to their target on one occassion.

As for the grenades, I was watching Champions League footy and one of the players, at the top of their game, still managed to perform a foul throw. A donkey thing to be doing at that level. Their lives aren;t even on the line as they are in Xenonauts.

totally take the point that if they are the best, then they should be at the peak of physical and mental stats almost form the beginning. But, as you say, where would be the fun of watching them develop.

Besides, the devs have put in that interesting mechanic of having the guys following the initial squad being worse, showing that your first guys really are the best of the best.

They only shoot each other because you order them to do it. :-) (yeah the mecahnic could use a little tweaking) You can't see their eyes rolling every time you press the fire button.


"What the hell are we supposed to use man? Harsh language?"

flashman
05-05-2012, 10:54
I just find it a little weird having 8 SGTS in a battle

Okim
05-05-2012, 11:41
I find initial squad quite 'well trained' actually. The guys who come later as a replacement are really much weaker (but can be trained to become smth closer to original squad).

The real problem of these soldiers is that they die from 1-2 hits even in initial armor and that their weapons are a bit too close to harmless. They do hit and do it frequently, they just don`t do much damage and require more hits to kill an alien (even RPG doesn`t kill from a single hit most of the time).

Regarding friendly fire and such - we have now a nice feature that helps us to see if a shot is going to hit friendlies (green boundaries around friendly in line of fire). About grenades... Yeah, there is plenty of improvement required here. The same with 'over-shoulder' fire.

I doubt that release will have current alpha tactical gameplay limitations such as these listed ;)

Chris
05-05-2012, 11:48
I don't think there's too much of a problem with the shooting accuracy really. If you use the sniper rifle etc or the high zoom levels for shots they are fairly accurate . Grenades are a mess though, you're right about them hitting intervening terrain too often.

thothkins
05-05-2012, 11:58
Having had around 5 hours in 10.1 I was struck by how well it seemed balanced. The aliens were quite tough. With early weapons this makes perfect sense, requiring a good mix of weapons and loadout to compensate.

Likewise, having my soldiers able to withstand a second shot is better than most of my time with coverall soldiers in XCom where a single hit would kill them.

Squad of 6 rookies v 3 Caesians = 4 dead, 1 survivor who had to finish off the three aliens and 1 lazarus at missions end. Much fun was had, so more of the same please.

jimbobfury
05-05-2012, 12:37
I actually prefer my soldiers to be a bit more fragile in the early game, at the minute they seem just about right in the Jackal armour but I've found that if you always try to end your turn in cover, you rarely get hit anyway as the aliens accuracy isn't that great.

I assume once the full AI model's in place then further balancing can take place. At the moment the aliens have to be able to withstand a good number of shots as they won't think to take cover to protect themselves. I'd like to see Caesans being made a little more fragile, personally, once they've got the wits about them to take cover. Sebillians are probably okay as they are, as they're meant to be tough. I can imagine it being a hell of a lengthy process taking down a Sebillian in cover once the AIs in place. (which is where suppression and flanking will come in! :D )

Hellstormer
05-05-2012, 12:44
Oh I'm not really complaining I just think it is seriously odd sometimes. I mean look two people, facing the same direction, aiming at the same target should NEVER be firing laterally and hitting each other for instance. I mean how does that even happen? It's like a 90 degree miss! What he aims and than jerks to the left 90 degrees from recoil?

It's just.. funny to me that's all :D

Good point about the replacement troops... those guys are REALLY bad and panic all the time too!

Commissar Pancakes
05-06-2012, 07:49
The real problem of these soldiers is that they die from 1-2 hits even in initial armor

Remember the good ol' days where your Rookies in the basic BDU Grey jumpsuit would just tank Heavy Plasma shots?
Those were the days...


Face it. The initial armor is LOADS better for your peace of mind than the original X-COM starting team.

Jean-Luc
05-06-2012, 15:21
I think he's referring to the Jackal armour, not the basic uniform. But, iirc, however strong your armour was in the original there was always a chance your guys would keel over from a single shot. I remember Personal Armour (http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Personal_Armour) having fairly little effect on survivability.

Commissar Pancakes
05-07-2012, 07:16
It probably allowed maybe 1 out of 12 of my rookies shot to survive with a nearly fatal wound (which I was lucky to beeline for medkits, or else that rookie was toast...).

Dix
05-07-2012, 21:17
Armour progression was all to the good - heavy flying armour definitely increased your squads chances. I really like your squad being able to hit the aliens regularly, but our weapons only just cutting it.
It's a good immersion builder for me.
It also adds the feeling of inferiority that so motivates and enlivens our troops ;).

Safe-Keeper
05-09-2012, 17:51
They're fine as they are. Yes, it's an immersion breaker, but it's also a good gameplay feature, in that it strongly encourages you to keep your guys alive and build a squad of elite soldiers.


The real problem of these soldiers is that they die from 1-2 hits even in initial armorWhich is IMHO both a good gameplay mechanic, realistic, and true to the X-Com games, in which soldiers without uniform died when hit 99% of the time, and all the initial uniform did was basically give them a chance to survive, even if they still often lost consciousness.

Surrounded by games in which people take a whole volley of shots to kill, I actually like this setup. The initial armour, in my opinion, should offer little additional protection -- later armour setups can be made to absorb fire better.

Belmakor
05-09-2012, 17:56
They're fine as they are. Yes, it's an immersion breaker, but it's also a good gameplay feature, in that it strongly encourages you to keep your guys alive and build a squad of elite soldiers.

Which is IMHO both a good gameplay mechanic, realistic, and true to the X-Com games, in which soldiers without uniform died when hit 99% of the time, and all the initial uniform did was basically give them a chance to survive, even if they still often lost consciousness.

Surrounded by games in which people take a whole volley of shots to kill, I actually like this setup. The initial armour, in my opinion, should offer little additional protection -- later armour setups can be made to absorb fire better.

I agree with this. I think that the starting armour should offer only projectile protection. You should have to research an armour that is designed to offer even minimal protection against plamsa weapons. Wouldn't need to be manufactured, just replace the stats of Jackal armour to represent the fact your scientists have found a new way of protecting against plasma. Kevlar isn't very good at dissipating heat after all.

As it stands, my guy can still storm a UFO with two reptillians inside, take a single reaction fire shot into the Jackal armour and then throw a grenade killing both.

I'd rather this ability was something that had to be earned only after losing several soliders to plasma fire in the first few missions.