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Arturius
02-12-2012, 15:52
After playing a bit I have noticed that the inventory proportions are just not right.
Yes, I know they are similar to original games but maybe we can make it even better?
What I mean is that rifle takes 10 "blocks" (let's call single inventory cell a block), launcher also takes 10 blocks, while pistol takes 6 and grenade just 1.
In my opinion it would be good to change that into something more balanced - either increase block size of big weapons (like rocket launcher) or make pistols "smaller". The idea is to make bigger "leap" from big weapons to small arms.
Right now, when I have a soldier equipped with a rocker launcher, I can barely fit secondary weapon there (and don't forget we also need ammo/medkit/grenades on almost every soldier).
And in my opinion every soldier should have a pistol with him just in case he runs into some nasty aliens and his main weapon malfunctions somehow (insert mood here!).

Another idea is to diverse inventory size by the armour worn. Basic armor should have just some elementary carrying space + small belt for ammo. Lvl 2 armor should have slightly larger backpack + bigger belt. Lvl 3 armor should add pistol hip holder + maybe some grenade/flare spots (like in X-Com Apocalypse).
It could look like that 631

PS. Yes Chris, I am a fan of JA2 1.13 mod :)

Please share your suggestions and/or similar ideas!

anotherdevil
02-12-2012, 18:39
you wouldn't successfully be able to carry 2 weapons anyway because of the weight of them all, so this is a bit unnecessary IMO

Gorlom
02-12-2012, 19:37
The idea is to make bigger "leap" from big weapons to small arms.

May I ask why? (Doesn't the weight stat cover that already?)


Right now, when I have a soldier equipped with a rocker launcher, I can barely fit secondary weapon there (and don't forget we also need ammo/medkit/grenades on almost every soldier).
And in my opinion every soldier should have a pistol with him just in case he runs into some nasty aliens and his main weapon malfunctions somehow (insert mood here!).

When you say your guy carrying a rocketlauncher can barely carry a secondary weapon.. are you talking about the pistol or a rifle/shotgun? And how would makeing the rocketlauncher take up more cells solve your problem?

It could look like that [picture]
I don't understand, you got 6 cells in the belt for the pistol. Why do you need another pistol holster?
Edit: Does any uniform acctually let you wear grenades on your shoulders? That just looks stupid to me.



I'm not sure what the point of changeing the inventorys design really is... You don't really seem to have any clear idea of how you want to change the gameplay. Just that you want to change it and don't really consider the balance afterwards.
To me this seems like a suggestion for the sake of haveing a suggestion. If not I apologize and ould ask you to be a bit clearer in explaining why you think the inventory needs to be rebalanced.

Arturius
02-12-2012, 20:55
Will do my best to explain myself as it was not my intention to post an idea just for the sake of posting. :)

The whole inventory resize idea comes from the fact that I believe later in the game we will have more and more items.
And those will be items that are useful, and we will want to have them on missions.
Right now, when we start, we are good with one weapon, some ammo for that weapon and maybe grenades.
When you put that all together there is little space left (in my opinion). And I pressume at some point one will want to pick something up on missions (remember that brainsucker pods from X-Com Apocalypse?).
Now, I do not know your preffered playstyle, but I always try to have everything needed on every soldier - so if we take a rocketman for example he has: 1x rocket launcher 3x rocket 1x pistol 1x pistol ammo 1x medkit +some grenades.
That is of course the ideal situation, weight of items put aside.
Getting back to my suggestion: with that loadout there is hardly any space left, and because of that I proposed to change the items proportions. If one rifle takes 10 "blocks" then let's make pistol take only 2 "blocks, and not 6. It would be more realistic, and you could organise your inventory better.
Please note that I am leaving aside weight problem, concentrating on size only.

Maybe I am just thinking way ahead, but if I can outfit my soldier so that his backpack is full on first mission how we can organise/manage inventory in the late game?
That's also why I proposed increased capacity with each armor level. It would be fun to develop new armor, knowing that it could also contribute towards your deployment tactics (soldiers loadout).
I do not want to change gameplay, it's just a bit more micromanaging I find interesting and if you feel otherwise it's perfectly fine. :)

Please let me know if my suggestion is still a bit unclear, I will do my best!

rynait
02-12-2012, 21:18
Hello,

arturis, you are the "take everything" kind of guy. some player build up a team with minimal carry. I am kind of in between, ignoring extras (and if all of sudden,) my team goes s*&^ need the rocketlauncher... they will more likely find another way without a rl.

This suprise element makes game more enjoyable.

R

Gorlom
02-12-2012, 23:03
So it's just a wish to have every soldier be rambo? How is bigger inventory more micromanageing? Haveing to fit what you want in the inventory space without going over the weight limit is micromanageing. Treating your soldiers like mules carry everything isn't really mangeing imo. Your suggestion isn't adding to the game it's removeing.
Also probbably should wait and see if there will be all these extra items you assume will be added before you balance the inventory size around it.:)

xracer
02-13-2012, 00:28
Also i do not agree with the idea of adding more spaces for the inventory, I think as it is it does provide enough space i mean on a tactical mission you have your belt and side arm, lbv (load bearing vest) some units have different names, and you have a basic backpack. if you need more than that well that is just a little too much to ask.

However i do like the idea of the multiple loadout based on armor, but that is as far as the similarity goes, from my perspective as your armor improves your space should actually decrease, if you have a power armor then that power supply unit alone will steal all the "backpack space" It is also leaning towards a pseudo-real representation, obvious lower level armor provides less protection but more flexibility and allowing you to take your pack off your back while "full armor" suits you can't just take your pack off and check what is inside :)

I know people will not like the idea but after all as your tech gets better you may actually required less equipment to perform the same functions, albeit some armor may have embedded areas that allow for items to be carried "ala robocop and his side arm" :D

another set of my $0.02

Akavit
02-13-2012, 01:16
I'm in favor of the idea that inventory loadouts be based upon armor type. The heavy power armors could feasibly be expected to provide the ability to carry a heavier and larger weapons loadout than the scout types. The might be bulkier but powered suits should also increase strength. It would provide additional differentiation between soldier roles in the battlefield.

Gazz
02-13-2012, 10:41
There has been at least one lenghty discussion about how armour could / should be balanced and inventory size was definitely mentioned.

So far, the engine at least got the ability to assign different "vision" stats so a light scout suit can well... scout better.

It would be very nice if the inventory size could be restricted as well.
Just like you said, a "walking tank" suit may well buff the soldier's strength high enough to carry that M2 Browning as a weapon but it would have a smaller - or no - backpack as a balancing factor.
The suit might simply not be nimble enough to reach around and access the backpack while belt slots would be within easy reach.

Inventory size adds a great deal of versatility which, all by itself, should be a factor in game balancing.

Apocalypse had a great system for that because each vehicle could have multiple equipment / weapon locations, each defined by a position on the screen and it's X/Y dimension.
The size of these slots limited what weapons you could put into them.

Chollirem
12-31-2012, 20:10
only heavy weapon users should have a pistol IMO, its how the army does it. but ya pistols are small should take slots of say...2x1 while a riffle would be 2x5, saws and launchers are like 3x6 +/-

Tacobandit
01-05-2013, 23:39
Is there a reason why you can't have a rifle in one hand and a rocket launcher in the other? Sure it's unpractical and you'll be inaccurate, but you could do it in the OG. And once your rookie becomes a high rank superhuman soldier, strength won't be a factor. And holding two weapons would allow your trooper to hold high inventory capacity items (rocket launcher/rifle) in order to have room for low capacity items (grenades/ammo, etc.).

Or here's another idea. Chinook storage. Have some things be inside the chinook.

thothkins
01-06-2013, 00:39
I'm not the biggest fan of stat increases. Yet they are in Xenonuts.
I'm not the biggest fan of Rambo soldiers running around firing rocket launchers and rifles in each hand either. Need some other argument...

in the meantime, Chinook storage is out (http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/3324-Dropship-storage-space-and-worldmap-structures?highlight=chinook+storage), although did I read recently that something had altered there?

Gauddlike
01-06-2013, 14:39
There are other changes for some armour suits if I remember rightly.
I vaguely recall Chris mentioned that some weapons will be restricted from some armour suits.
For example light scouting armour suits, like the jump capable suits, would not be able to handle heavy weapons while heavy assault type suits would.

I could be completely wrong though, haven't found the thread I read it in...

thothkins
01-06-2013, 18:44
that would be good. I'm all for differentiating the soldiers. It would be a pain to have a scout, with air capability and heavy weapons.

hmm, I'd have thought perhaps any flying capability would peg back the APs a bit. Just a thought. S, you get the bonus of elevation and firing form that, but you won't be able to race across the battlescape as quickly as a lightly armed ground scout?

Gazz
01-06-2013, 18:52
Is there a reason why you can't have a rifle in one hand and a rocket launcher in the other?
Yes, common sense. =)

Have you fired an assault rifle or machine gun? I did.
You wouldn't want to do that one-handed.

Tacobandit
01-07-2013, 06:12
Yes, common sense. =)

Have you fired an assault rifle or machine gun? I did.
You wouldn't want to do that one-handed.

Implying X-COM was ever about realism. Unless this game is about a realistic X-COM. I thought that realism was just to apply to all the technology of the time. If realism is to be a part of the actual fighting... well...

And yes, I made the mistake of firing an enfield one handed. I will not be trying that again.

Tacobandit
01-07-2013, 06:17
that would be good. I'm all for differentiating the soldiers. It would be a pain to have a scout, with air capability and heavy weapons.

hmm, I'd have thought perhaps any flying capability would peg back the APs a bit. Just a thought. S, you get the bonus of elevation and firing form that, but you won't be able to race across the battlescape as quickly as a lightly armed ground scout?

The bobbing of the flying suit would seriously hinder accuracy. Unless you crouched in mid-air, that might fix it.

Of course flying and shooting and crouching in mid-air is far from realistic.

Max_Caine
01-07-2013, 06:27
From what I have gleaned from the forum, the flying suits are not "true" flying suits. They are more like "assisted jump" suits, where a squaddie must start and finish their movement with their feet on the ground. Shooting mid-air isn't going to be a problem, as there isn't going to be any. I do remember a comment from Chris that power armour was going to have "designated weapons".

Tacobandit
01-07-2013, 06:37
From what I have gleaned from the forum, the flying suits are not "true" flying suits. They are more like "assisted jump" suits, where a squaddie must start and finish their movement with their feet on the ground. Shooting mid-air isn't going to be a problem, as there isn't going to be any. I do remember a comment from Chris that power armour was going to have "designated weapons".

So what's the point of jumping? Getting onto a roof? Wouldn't it be cheaper and more realistic to use a grappling hook?

Gauddlike
01-07-2013, 06:52
Leaping tall buildings in a single bound, covering ground faster, jumping from roof to roof and so on.

Max_Caine
01-07-2013, 07:29
Looing at the assets, a jump-jet battlesuit is more AP effcient at moving around than a normal squaddie. Agility and mobility is what the jump-jets grant.

thothkins
01-07-2013, 17:55
Leaping tall buildings in a single bound, covering ground faster, jumping from roof to roof and so on.

tech: Ta-Da! Jump Suits!
Xenonauts: Wow! Awesome!
Cpl: Hicks: It has been the dream of man to fly...
tech: actually, you can't.
Cpl Hocks: Aw. Well, levitating while picking off aliens will be great.
tech: ah, nope. It won't do that either.
Cdr Gauddlike: Hey, why is there a bath towel sticking out the back of mine, and what's this lipstick "S" for?
Cpl Max_Caine: What the $%! why does my helmet have wings. What the h3ll am I supposed to do with a hammer? Fix their ship?!
Sgt thothkins: Could be worse. Gorlom's box has "Wonder Woman" on it. I wonder what this Ambush Bug suit will >pop<

Gorlom
01-07-2013, 19:34
Sgt thothkins: Could be worse. Gorlom's box has "Wonder Woman" on it.
There's an invisible jet in my box? CRAAAAP those are such a pain to fly. You never see the warning-lights lighting up :(
And the maintenance crew always forget to maintain it. :mad:

thothkins
01-07-2013, 19:49
then there was that incident where the other pilot thought there was an empty hanger spot, and there wasn't. Fortunately, your jump pack came with a magic lasso :)

still, the aliens won't see you coming, unless...

1822

you're still visible. D'Oh!

Tacobandit
01-07-2013, 20:44
Looing at the assets, a jump-jet battlesuit is more AP effcient at moving around than a normal squaddie. Agility and mobility is what the jump-jets grant.

What about reaction shots?

thothkins
01-07-2013, 21:00
I think the idea is that you'll never be in the air to make a reaction shot.

During that soldier's turn, he/she will begin a jump but will have to end it within the APs that they have left. So, at start and end of their turn they will be on the ground/ roof.

If you meant alien reaction shots to your jump suit, then yes, they should be able to shoot you out of the sky.

Tacobandit
01-07-2013, 21:10
I think the idea is that you'll never be in the air to make a reaction shot.

During that soldier's turn, he/she will begin a jump but will have to end it within the APs that they have left. So, at start and end of their turn they will be on the ground/ roof.

If you meant alien reaction shots to your jump suit, then yes, they should be able to shoot you out of the sky.

But how would the reaction shot work. Actually, how do reaction shots work in this game? Is it the formula they used in the OG? Because it would matter in this case. Does the jump consume TUs as soon as you jump, or as soon as you land? Because that could be the difference between getting shot and making it down safely.

Max_Caine
01-08-2013, 03:02
Pass. No idea. Can't tell from the assets, and there isn't much info about the jump pack or reaction fire.

Gauddlike
01-08-2013, 09:47
The assets do list a vertical and horizontal jump AP cost in config.xml
Not sure if that will be spent as part of a standard movement (i.e. per tile) or if it is just used to calculate total AP cost for a jump.

If you played W40k Chaos Gate there were assault marines with jump packs.
Range was limited, you couldn't land under an overhanging object, you also didn't trigger reaction fire on the way in.
It worked in that game because the assault marines were close combat so couldn't stay out at range and were quite vulnerable to ranged enemies until they got into jump range.
It was also had a set AP pool that recharged over multiple turns if I remember rightly so you wouldn't be able to perform regular long jumps.
Either keep them out of the fight until you had enough charge to jump right to the enemy or use multiple short jumps to bounce between cover.

In Xeno jump armour is lighter so you probably won't be using it to close on the enemy for melee unless you are sure of a kill, or a stun at least.
If jump suits can use the precision rifle it could be interesting though.

Max_Caine
01-08-2013, 10:22
Hmm.... at a guess, I would probbably say the reaction fire would be worked out at the end of the jump, to make things simple.

Gauddlike
01-08-2013, 13:11
What if the end of your jump left you out of sight of the enemy who was trying to shoot?
Might as well only have the takeoff and landing be vulnerable to reaction fire otherwise it could lead to even more complications.
That would probably be when you were most noticeable anyway if there is a visible/audible discharge from the pack anyway.

This is drifting away from the inventory size discussion though.

thothkins
01-08-2013, 21:16
alien 1: what the hell was that noise?!
alien 2: oh, it's one of the humans' jump packs.
alien1: where is it?
alien2: should be reaching the top of it's arc in a moment...there!
alien1: right, shoot it ebfore it gets abck down into cover.
alien2: No we can't do that.
alien1: why the h3ll not?! it'll be behind cover when it lands.
alien2: nope. We just can't. It's some sort of rule.
alien1: what?! but it can just sneak..>pew pew< both are killed by Xenonaut from it's new cover position (with a star wars style laser)

In other words, if a force can see the enemy clear of cover in an elevated position, I have no idea why they wouldn't have a go at shooting it. That's one of the risks in using the equipment, and it would seem a bit odd otherwise.

Gauddlike
01-08-2013, 22:56
Especially if someone were to modify your jump suit so it yelled PULL every time you tried to use it.
Just thinking out loud...

thothkins
01-08-2013, 23:15
yeah, that would be another tell tale that there were jump suits in the area. :)

Cdr Gauddlike: tech! how is the plasma research going.
tech: We can't get the raw materials to continue. The aliens all reverted to shotguns as soon as we introduced Jump-Packs.
Cdr Gauddlike: I wonder if it's connected to all their uniforms now including wellies, anoraks and a lot of tweed...

Tacobandit
01-09-2013, 01:01
alien 1: what the hell was that noise?!
alien 2: oh, it's one of the humans' jump packs.
alien1: where is it?
alien2: should be reaching the top of it's arc in a moment...there!
alien1: right, shoot it ebfore it gets abck down into cover.
alien2: No we can't do that.
alien1: why the h3ll not?! it'll be behind cover when it lands.
alien2: nope. We just can't. It's some sort of rule.
alien1: what?! but it can just sneak..>pew pew< both are killed by Xenonaut from it's new cover position (with a star wars style laser)

In other words, if a force can see the enemy clear of cover in an elevated position, I have no idea why they wouldn't have a go at shooting it. That's one of the risks in using the equipment, and it would seem a bit odd otherwise.

If the reaction fire system is based solely on whether you can shoot, and not comparing your reaction scores against each other like it did in the OG, then yes, that makes sense.

However, if it does compare the scores, then if the jumping dude's reaction score is higher than the alien's while in mid-jump, he's good. Now depending on whether the TUs are subtracted before or after the launch could substantially affect that.

thothkins
01-09-2013, 21:54
yes, but in the example above, the aliens are able to stand and watch the jumping Xenonaut, yet are unable to shoot at it because the game tells them they can't. Clearly they have reaction APs to burn.

Teh point being exactly as you say, if they have the time and the opportunity then they should be able to fire. If it's a quick jump or they have used up all of their APs then that's a different example.

Tacobandit
01-09-2013, 22:34
yes, but in the example above, the aliens are able to stand and watch the jumping Xenonaut, yet are unable to shoot at it because the game tells them they can't. Clearly they have reaction APs to burn.

Teh point being exactly as you say, if they have the time and the opportunity then they should be able to fire. If it's a quick jump or they have used up all of their APs then that's a different example.
Yes but if your soldier has high reactions, he still might have a higher reaction score than the aliens. That's my point. If it counts the TU loss before the jump, he might not have the higher reaction score. If it deducts them after he lands, he might have the higher reaction score.

thothkins
01-09-2013, 22:52
Ah, when I picture the jump pack, it's a quite unwieldy piece of equipment. Sort of a lighter version of the Starship Troopers device. The UFO ET game version took up the whole inventory space as another example.

Here's a 1968 jet pack picture

1824

So, even if the jet pack user has high reactions, there's only so much manoeuvrability that he has. Sometimes having the higher reaction score simply means that you know your enemy has a good chance of shooting you before they do :)

Tacobandit
01-10-2013, 01:59
Ah, when I picture the jump pack, it's a quite unwieldy piece of equipment. Sort of a lighter version of the Starship Troopers device. The UFO ET game version took up the whole inventory space as another example.

Here's a 1968 jet pack picture

1824

So, even if the jet pack user has high reactions, there's only so much manoeuvrability that he has. Sometimes having the higher reaction score simply means that you know your enemy has a good chance of shooting you before they do :)
Having the higher reaction score means that the alien can't shoot you at all.

Gauddlike
01-10-2013, 09:11
Yes but if your soldier has high reactions, he still might have a higher reaction score than the aliens. That's my point. If it counts the TU loss before the jump, he might not have the higher reaction score. If it deducts them after he lands, he might have the higher reaction score.
AP amount and reaction stat are not related though, unless there is a modifier based on number of AP used in an action but I have never noticed that relationship.
Your soldier would still have the same reaction stat regardless of if he was taking off, landing, in mid air, throwing a grenade, etc.
His reaction stat would also remain the same if he was standing with 100 AP at the start of his turn or kneeling with 10AP at the end.
The difference would be purely where on the path a calculation takes place or which action would trigger the opportunity.

When walking each individual action seems to provide a comparison roll to determine a reaction shot.
Each tile crossed in view of the enemy gives a chance to shoot, each shot fired does the same and so on.
The question is mainly if the same is true of jumping.
Does each tile crossed in the air allow the same reaction fire opportunity or will only takeoff and landing be classed as actions for this?
Is movement when jumping going to be the same as walking but with a different animation and sound effect (as x-com flying armour) or will it basically be a teleport with a jump animation between the two points (as chaos gate assault marines).
Hopefully it won't be long until we can all have a play with that and find out how Chris wanted it done:)

Wonder if the function is in game yet.
Might be worth unlocking the jump armour and having a look...

thothkins
01-10-2013, 18:03
I think I said as much, but having a teleport effect just doesn't seem right.

If it were to be that, I'd prefer it if the Xenonauts managed to get some kind of teleport device from the aliens later in the game. At least the effect would then match the description. Or it's a jump pack as in teleportation jump, not as in Jet Pack.

If the combat boot were on the other foot: You see an alien leaping through the air in it's turn. It's not particularly fast, it's in the middle of it's arc and you have plenty of reaction opportunities. But you can't shoot it. Ever. It would just look odd.

Tacobandit
01-10-2013, 22:02
I think I said as much, but having a teleport effect just doesn't seem right.

If it were to be that, I'd prefer it if the Xenonauts managed to get some kind of teleport device from the aliens later in the game. At least the effect would then match the description. Or it's a jump pack as in teleportation jump, not as in Jet Pack.

If the combat boot were on the other foot: You see an alien leaping through the air in it's turn. It's not particularly fast, it's in the middle of it's arc and you have plenty of reaction opportunities. But you can't shoot it. Ever. It would just look odd.

You ever have those slowpoke soldiers with 30 reactions, who let chryssalids run up to them and zombify them without ever shooting?

thothkins
01-11-2013, 20:01
yes, but they were stricken with terror. That's why they couldn't shoot. :)